‍Vince Vitale [00:00:41] Hey friends, thank you so much for joining us for Ask Away. If it's making a difference in your life, give us a quick rating or review. That really helps the show. Or better yet, if there's someone in your life whom you could share the show with, maybe someone who's still figuring out what they believe about faith? And keep sending in your questions. If you have a question, it's very likely others are wrestling with the same thing, and we'd love the chance to speak to it on the show. This week, we're sharing a live Q&A that Jo did at Stanford University with a group of female students, specifically addressing their questions about the passages and themes in the Bible that they find hardest to make sense of. We hope listening in will strengthen your confidence in the character of God and His heart for women, and also equip you to encourage any women in your own life who may be struggling with how the God of the Bible sees them. 

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Audience Question [00:01:41] So the first question was, why wasn't Eve created in the same way as Adam? Why weren't both formed in the same way? Why did God make women? Especially if women aren't like him, because he's male, so where did God get the idea for women? And were women an afterthought? 

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Jo Vitale [00:01:56] Thank you so much for all the questions you sent. And they were really good, and they were really rich and deep and hard and thoughtful. And we're going to try and get through as many as we can. But any that don't get hit, hang around a little bit after this, but you also five minutes way so we can always meet some more. Especially shout out the person who sent in about 10 questions that were super thorny Old Testament questions. If you're here, thank you. I loved them. And I was reading them, I was like, these were my questions. I was like, this is a long list of all the things I was struggling with when I went into working the Old Testament as well. So, I really appreciated just the grappling there. 

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[00:02:30] And I think just starting out, so I just want to encourage you guys because you won't have a chance to cover everything today, but just to grapple with your questions, particularly when it comes to this topic in the Bible, I think sometimes we can feel discouraged that maybe it's not okay to struggle with these questions or to have them. I just want to say, I think God is so much bigger than all of our questions. And I think Scripture encourages us to love him with our minds, and I think part of the way we do that is by asking really good questions. That's actually a compliment to somebody that says, "I want to get to know you. I want to know what you like. And I actually want to come to know even the hard things about you that I don't understand, and not just the things that kind of seem easy." So, I just want to encourage you in that journey, especially if you're in the middle of it and you feel like you're struggling with some of this stuff, that's okay. 

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[00:03:16] It was a big part of my story, it's why I wound up going down this route and doing a piece in the Old Testament. Because I just I grew up in a Christian home and you knew Jesus from a young age. I thought he was amazing. I had this really intimate relationship with him, and I grew up loving the Bible as well, and then came to do theology at university. And then particularly during my master's year, suddenly I just felt overwhelmed by so many texts, particularly in the Old Testament, that I was just having a tough time with and really wrestling through. And I'm glad that there was a point where I was like, I think maybe I'll just give up here, but I'm so glad I didn't. I'm so glad. I would just say, when you have doubts, don't run from them, but actually run towards God with them. That experience of digging deeper into my faith for a time I was like, oh, is this whole thing going to fall apart? 

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[00:04:04] But actually I would say that he took some things apart for me for a while, but the way he put them back together, I came thinking, wow, you're actually more beautiful than I thought, not less. And so just trust him. Just trust him with your questions and trust him with the journey and the process. And it's great that you can do it together in community. It's great that you can come together around these questions. So, I'm glad we're doing that today. First question, Eve. Start at the beginning and we'll just go from there. We're not going to get through the whole thing. But Eve, yeah, so let me just start by saying I'm sure that you guys when you come to college you're encouraged to first and foremost, whenever you're writing a paper, you need to know your thesis statement, right? You need to know what are the headlines? Where am I going with this? What is the key point? 

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[00:04:45] And what I love about the Bible is it kind of does the same thing for us. Before we get into anything else in Scripture, Genesis one is kind of like God's like blueprint for the whole rest of where everything is going. And it's kind of his thesis statement about who is he and who are we? Like, that's kind of the summary here. And so, I just find it incredible that before-- we'll talk about Genesis two in a second. But before we get into any of those details that leave us scratching our heads, actually, the thesis statement of God when it comes to Genesis is actually, "And so God made mankind in his image. In the image of God, he created them. Male and female, he created them." And I know that that can kind of wash over us because it's like, yeah, yeah, we've had it how many times? 

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[00:05:28] But it's so radical that that would be the opening lines of Scripture when it comes to what God has to say about humanity, because that just wasn't the culture at the time. Women would never have been included in those kinds of sweeping statements when it comes to talking about equality and image bearing. I mean, Plato, who one of like the greatest thinkers of the ancient world in the fifth century, he said, it's only men who were created by the gods and given souls. And those who live rightly return to the stars, and those who are cowards [inaudible]to be supposed to have turned into women in the second generation. So basically, he's saying, like, only men are in the image of God, and if you're a cowardly man you become a woman at rebirth. Which is super flattering. 

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[00:06:06] But sometimes our Christian history gets a bit warped as well. Some theologians make comments like the women are misbegotten male. The idea being that somehow we got warped in creation and something went a bit wrong with us, and so we're just the last good version of man. The question asked, are we an afterthought? But that's not what we get. Right at the beginning, we're told mankind is made the image of God. And it's one of those phrases where sometimes in your Bibles you read it and you're like, "Is it saying that just man alone is made in the image of God?" But actually, when it comes to the Hebrew grammar, it's very clearly talking about humanity. It's one of those inclusive words. And just in case we're wondering, hey, who's included in this? It actually spells it out explicitly, doesn't it? Male and female. He created them in the image of God. So, what that says to us is right at the beginning, God made us. 

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[00:06:54] He made us like him. He made us sacred and distinct from anything else in all creation. And that men and women both carry his image. There's no split there. But actually, in that question it asks, and why did God make women if we're not like God because he's male. That's not what Scripture says. Scripture says you are like God. That's exactly what it means. It says according to his likeness. You are like God. You're made in his image. And so that's kind of the headline for us. And then we get to Genesis two, and it's not some accidental like thrown together, oh, let's just stuff in two creation stories and let everyone just puzzle out which one they like best. They're intentionally put together. The first one is kind of the overarching vision, kind of a 30,000-foot view. And then we get down into the kind of the details. 

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[00:07:36] And some of these details we read and we're like what is going on in this text? Why is Adam created first? What does it mean that Eve is called a suitable helper? Why is she taken from his rib? He's made from ground. What is going on in this story? But just to say, I think when you get to the flow of the story, something very intentional is happening here. We're actually told after everything in the first chapter is good, good, good. God saw it was good. He saw it was good. For the first time in creation, we're told something isn't good. And the thing that's not good is that man is alone. God says, oh, it's not good for him to be alone. And, I mean, it's not like God sitting there being like, oh, I scratched my head. I think I've missed something. I've made everything else, but something's missing. 

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[00:08:16] God is not an idiot. He knows that woman isn't there yet in this story. So, the question is, what is the point of the narrative? And the point of the narrative is actually to make that very point. It's not good for man to be alone. Rather than women being an afterthought, I think the whole flow of this passage is to say that actually community was God's very good design. And particularly the partnering of male and female is a very intentional, very good thing. And that actually rather than being like, hey, men don't really need women, it's the opposite. If you say that it's not good, it's implying actually something is missing and it's the women. So, I think it's the flip of how we sometimes read it. We get a little caught up in this phrase "suitable helper." I don't know how that reads to you when you hear it. It can sound kind of demeaning. I think of The Simpsons. They used to have this dog called Santa's Little Helper, and that in my mind goes off like a magician with some lovely assistant. 

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[00:09:08] This is so patronizing. But that's not what the text is getting at. Actually, the phrase in Hebrew is ezer kenegdo. And ezer means helper. Nearly every other time that word is used in the Old Testament, is actually used to describe God Himself. So contained within that idea is not this idea of inferiority, which makes sense, right? If you're struggling with something and you need someone to come in and help you, they're actually coming in from a position of strength, not weakness. And just in case you're confused about that, kenegdo, the phrase there, our Bible sometimes translate it as suitable but a better translation is counterpart. It's kind of like a mirror image, like you're standing opposite somebody. The connotation is equal and opposite. And so, what I love about it is there's a beauty to this. It's saying you're not made the same. We're actually different. It's intentional. It's not some accident that we have male and female. There is a design to that. But it's intended as partnership, it's intended as a quality. 

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[00:10:05] And actually there's a purpose to the woman being called a helper precisely because she's not created to go and do something else. It's not like men you're over here doing your thing, and women you're over here doing your thing. But it's saying, no, men and women together are created to fulfill the purposes God made for them to be fruitful and multiply, and to rule the earth and take care of it, to subdue it. Both are invited in to this big vision that God has. So just to say, I don't think what we're reading here is some like afterthought as women coming in this kind of inferior place, but actually it's saying, hey, there's a beauty. And Adam's words capture it when he's like, "You're bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh." It sounds a little like Tarzan, but it's kind of like the first love poem, right? 

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[00:10:47] You're like me. Basically, we're made of the same stuff. We're not differently created. We're actually coming out of one flesh because we're designed to be one flesh. It's about unity at the very deepest level. So, I think that is kind of the heart behind men and women at the very beginning. And just to finish on that question, I was speaking a few years ago at Liberty University on this topic. And after, this big kind of bearded guy came up to me and he looked really serious. And I was like, oh, no, I've probably really offended him and he's going to have some big problem with what I just said. But I actually looked closer and he was tearing up. And then he started talking about this text and he said, like, "Something clicked for me tonight." 

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[00:11:28] And he was saying how the image that came to mind as I was speaking was as if God was a painter. He created this masterpiece. And then like as the final flourish, when he was done, he kind of like signed it with his signature as a sign like, I made it and it's in my image. And he was just saying as I was speaking what he felt like the Holy Spirit was saying to him was actually like the creation of woman is like my final signature. It's like my stamp on it is saying, this is me. And I just thought, that's such a surprisingly beautiful, poetic way to put it from this plaid clad, very bearded slightly frightening looking guy. But, yeah, just something in that, I just thought that, yeah, that to me is really beautiful. And so, let's end there for the first question. Yeah. Who has the second. 

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Audience Question [00:12:09] The second question is ‘why does God present himself as male rather than female? And does God identify more with man than women? And does that mean that women are less valuable or actually different and not like God? 

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Jo Vitale [00:12:23] Yeah. Great question. And a few thoughts on this one. Firstly, I know that a lot of the language that's used when we come to Scripture is we think of God as father. We think of him as Lord of kind of male names that are given to us. So, it's not that we just made that up. It's actually given to us in the Bible. As a starting point, I think sometimes that can cloud our thinking a little bit because actually when we're talking about God, he's so beyond our categories. It's a really awkward sounding word, but the phrase would be super sexual. He's beyond sex categories. So sometimes the maleness of God can get a little bit carried away with. And I think particularly in light of what we read in Genesis one, the fact that we're both made in his image means that actually it doesn't make sense to talk about God as if he's more male and female in some ultimate sense. 

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[00:13:10] Now, there is more to say here because I do think it's important the language that Scripture gives us to talk about God. I think it's very intentional. I'm not inclined to be someone who says, hey, just do away with it, like father, mother or whatever you want to call him. I think there's meaning and there's reason. I think God is intentional in the language he gives us. So why father in particular. And that's actually particularly the word that Jesus gives us to talk about God. You don't get a lot of references to God as father in the Old Testament, but Jesus uses it so much. And I think the purpose behind that is what does it mean-- particularly in that culture, what does it mean to be a father? How is that understood? And it's partly about who's in charge. It's about who's the ultimate authority. 

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[00:13:49] But I think it's also deeper than that because it's also a familial word, isn't it? It's putting God in the category, in the language of relationship, of family relationship, and of actually saying the way we were intended to relate to God is as family. And in the past, sometimes it's hard for us if we haven't had great dads in particular. That can be a really hard word for us, but the intention here is actually to say, hey, not only is there a God who made you and who's in control, but actually he sees you as father and you're adopted into his family. And that's part of what it means to become a Christian. So, I think that language is very purposeful. But at the same time, I will also say there are a lot of images used throughout Scripture that are also more feminine to describe God; not in terms of the names given to him, so much as the metaphors used. 

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[00:14:33] Say things like a seamstress. Or in Isaiah 49, I love this one, God is likened to a nursing mother. And the text actually says in verse 15, "Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget? I will not forget you. See, I've engraved you on the palms of my hands and your walls are ever before me." It was kind of an ancient cultural tradition that you mothers would tattoo the names of kids on their hands. And so, what is actually like adopting this image of kind of like a mother would have been, like, you are so precious to me as my child. That like a mother, I literally have you written, engraved, forever tattooed on the palms of my hands. I think there's a significance to that. 

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[00:15:15] The other thing I would want to say here is that sometimes we can get a little bit caught particularly on Jesus. Because obviously Jesus is a man, so it begs the question why did he come as a man rather than a woman? And some people would just pragmatically say, well, he had to pick one. You might go down that line. But increasingly, as I look at the world and I look at the patterns of the ways that often women in particular have been treated and some of the abuses that we see, as I get older, it just strikes me that I'm really, really thankful that actually Jesus did come as a man. Because I think in a world where we have so many bad models sometimes of what it means to be male, I'm really, really grateful that Jesus comes to show people actually this is what it means to be really a man. This is what manhood looks like. And particularly this is what it looks like to treat women the way God intended them to be treated. And I think we really needed that. 

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[00:16:17] And I'm really, really thankful for that because I see so many things that go on in the world, and there's so many counter examples with Jesus and the way that women respond to him and the welcome he gave them and the safety that they felt with him and how seen they felt by him and how loved. And there's so much to it that I think speaks volumes, not only about how God sees us, but also about how men were intended to see women. So that's just an aside. But for me personally, rather than that becoming like an obstacle, oh, Jesus can't relate to me because he's male, I've actually been so thankful that he is. And the other thing I would just say to that is that at the end of the day, because I'm an image bearer, because I'm made in the image of God, and because I believe as a Christian that God's Holy Spirit has actually come to live inside of me, I don't think there's anything that I go through as a woman that God can't relate to. 

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Jo Vitale [00:17:02] Or that he doesn't know how I'm feeling or what I'm going through that actually like my body as a female body is a temple of the holy Spirit. And that's an amazing thing to be able to say about a woman's body. And I think that that's true across the board whether you're male or female. So, I don't think it's the case that God can't relate to us. I don't think it's the case that Jesus can't represent us. And I don't think it's the case that there's some fundamental way in which God doesn't understand who we are or get us as women, because we're made in his image in a really deep way. So those are just a few thoughts around that question. Let's carry on. What's number three? 

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Audience Question [00:17:37] Yes. The next question is ‘When I read the Old Testament, I see many verses and stories, that points to maybe women had less value and agency than men. Why would God give instructions that mothers or women have less authority? Are women valued less than men in God's sense? 

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Jo Vitale [00:17:51] It's such a good question. And I'm thank you for it. This question, in part, is kind of an amalgamation of about 10 questions because someone wrote kind of like almost like 10 different really challenging Bible verses. So, we're trying to bring them together. But what I'll do as I answer this question is address some of the ones that were specifically brought up and by somebody who won't have a chance to go through all of them because of time. But just to give you some examples of how to perhaps think about this question in particular. And it's really important, right? Because this is where I think we get stuck. This is in some ways the hardest thing. We read Genesis one, Genesis two, like, okay, made in the image of God. God loves people. And then everything goes horribly wrong. And you're like, what do I do with the rest of the Old Testament? And so many verses that you read, and they can feel genuinely traumatizing and they can feel really painful. 

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[00:18:36] And I think the first thing we need to do is actually acknowledge that that is real, that actually there's a lot of sexism in the Old Testament, but we shouldn't be surprised by that. Why? Because the purpose of the Old Testament is not to be a fairy tale upholding the behavior of everyone and being, like, look at all these perfect moral tales with all these saints who never get anything wrong. Really, most of the Old Testament is to show how badly wrong people get it and how far off-course we go, and God's pursuit of people, even as we're continuing to behave in ways that are fundamentally against how he's designed us to actually be. So, most of the Old Testament is more about condemning the behavior than commending it. And so, we just need to be really careful when we're reading these texts and these stories to come at it from the right perspective. 

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[00:19:21] And when we do, I'm actually grateful because if the Bible wasn't real about things like sexism and abuse and rape and incest and polygamy and so many of the really hard scenarios that we come across in the Old Testament, if it didn't actually speak to those realities, then how could it speak to our reality? Like, how could it speak to the world the way in and the things that sometimes as women we struggle with and really deep way? So, I'm actually really thankful that the Old Testament reflects the very worst of human nature, because it's kind of like a mirror being held up to who we are. So that would be kind of a starting point for that one. And then the question kind of referenced both stories and verses. And I think about that in terms of how do we make sense of some of the stories, and then particularly how do we make sense of some of the lores? Because you kind of need to handle them in different ways. 

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[00:20:07] So, for example, with the stories, I think we're seeing a lot of what I've just said of examples of bad behavior. But when it comes to those stories, you can then ask the question, okay, this is how people are treating the situation, but what is God doing in it? And how is it different from what people are doing? And I find that deeply encouraging when I come to understand that distinction, because there are so many instances where women are being treated horribly and then God is doing something fundamentally different. Just to give you a couple of examples, Lot who some men come and they want to rape the guests that he has in his house, and so his solution is, well, I'll just give him my daughters instead. Let's just send them out to the rapist. But then what does God do? 

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[00:20:48] God actually sends angelic messengers to intervene and protect those women, because that was not what was on his heart. And he had a fundamentally different response. So, yeah, Lot is a terrible father, but God is an extremely different kind of father. When you look at Abraham and Sarah, and Abraham the father of faith whose great idea was, let's pretend that Sarah is my sister every time we go and stay with these powerful rulers so that she can go and be part of the harem, but I will save my life because they won't kill me to take my beautiful wife. And what does God do every time? He doesn't do it once. He's a slow learner apparently. Two times this happens, and in both cases, God actually intervenes because Abraham has interpreted God's promise to him as you're going to be the father of nations, and I have this great blessing for you. 

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[00:21:29] And God's like, hold on, you have a wife. This doesn't just apply to you. This is for Sarah, too. She's not collateral damage to your great promise. This was for her as well. And God actually defends Sarah throughout that whole story where Abraham keeps trying to find workarounds to finding an heir. And God's like, no, it's Sarah. I am upholding this marriage. I'm upholding this woman. You don't get workarounds here. That is to me a big distinction between the stories between what people are doing, what God is doing. I think the hardest thing for us is the legal codes, because thinking as, like, well, these are God's lores, so if I find something really hard to understand in these lores that seems oppressive to women, that must mean that God is for it, right? Because he's the one who made the lores. 

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Jo Vitale [00:22:14] A couple of things to say about that. Firstly, these are examples of case law. What I mean by that is we have God's perfect vision for humanity in Genesis, but we're not there anymore. When it comes to the rest of the Old Testament, people have sinned. And so God had a choice. When everything got so messed up, he could either say, forget this whole thing, just done with human beings. No more forever. Or he has a choice to say, okay, this is like a serious mess, and the way we're treating each other is actually horrifying. But I'm not going to give up on them, and I'm going to keep revealing myself, reaching out to my people. And so that's why I say case law. Because case law is when you have a kind of law where you say, actually nothing about these circumstances is ideal. It's a bad situation anyway. But how do I manage the mess to prevent as much harm as possible and to leave things as less bloody and dangerous and damaging as I can? It's the kind of thing where your parents might be, like, please don't get that piercing, but if you've gone and got it anyway, then at least take it out when your grandma comes to visit. 

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[00:23:09] It's kind of like let's prevent the damage and try and manage the situation even though it's not ideal. And so, a lot of these lores come with a sell by date. Actually, Jesus is clear about that in the Gospel of Matthew when he's asked a tough question about divorce and he says, actually, Moses gave you those laws because your hearts were hardened, but it wasn't intended that way from the beginning. They were for a time. But actually, God's ultimate law is different. It's not to say it's not good. God gave the laws and they are good, but they do come for a specific time in a specific context. And so, for us, it's partly working through how do we make sense of some of this really challenging historical context where I don't always know everything that is going on. And so, one thing that helps me to read the laws of the Old Testament when I'm trying to make sense of them, is to ask the question, who is the Lord protecting? If the judgment is that serious, if it's being treated this seriously, then who's it trying to protect? What is being upheld here? 

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[00:24:02] That's so important because some of these laws seem so extreme. And what's surprising is that actually when you ask that question of these laws particularly, some of the ones pertaining to women, the answer that usually comes back is it's the woman. It's the woman who's being protected. It's the vulnerable. So let me give you a good example that we're asked about from Exodus 21 verse 1 to 11. And this is about the freeing of slaves. And a really good question that was asked is why this distinction that male slaves get set free on Jubilee after seven years under these kinds of normal circumstances? And, no, that's still case law because the ideal for was that there never be slaves in the first place. So, nothing about this is a good situation. But why is it that men get to go free in seven years but that doesn't apply to women? Like, why is this distinction made? Is it that women are more oppressed than men in this circumstance? 

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[00:24:52] Actually, that's not what's going on. Let me read it to you. "If a man sells his daughter is a servant, she is not to go free as male slaves do. If she does not please the master who selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners because he's broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. And if he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free without any payment of money." So basically, the point of this text is that women are not supposed to be sexual slaves. The point is, you don't just get to bring someone into your home, have sex with her for a number of years, and then be like, okay, see you. You're on your way. If you come into those circumstances, then she's to be treated as wife. Is treating her as a wife, and that's why it's treating her differently. You don't let a wife go free after seven years. She's yours for life, actually. It's about protecting her. 

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[00:25:46] And so, it's even saying if he brings her into the home but then he decides not to make her his wife, he can't then sell her to a foreigner who might treat her as a sexual slave. Either he has to honor the promise by marrying her to a son, or if she remains in the household, he still has to give all provision for her that would have been given to her as a wife even if he marries somebody else, even if she's not married and isn't playing that role. And if he's not doing those things, he has to let her go free without getting any money back, even though he paid money for her. So again, it's about protecting the women. I'll give you one more example of a kind of tricky Old Testament text. And this one is particularly about value, because one of the questions asked is about some of these lores that seem to imply women are of less value. And this is from Leviticus chapter 12 verse 1 to 5. And this is particularly around the question of menstrual cycles. 

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[00:26:34] And we read this text and we're like, what is going on? Like, why does it seem to imply that somehow because a woman has a period she's unclean? And is this some kind of statement that actually women are dirtier than men? Well, somehow less worthy for something that is not her fault, it's just biology. Firstly, let me just say here that actually the whole point of these purity laws is that one way or another, they applied to everyone in the community. So, it's not just women with menstrual cycles. If a man emits semen, he also has to go through a process of being made clean. And it goes right down to your common spots and skin diseases, kind of rashes everybody gets at some point in their life. And the reason for it is not to say like you're also awful, but rather to say like, hey, there's no human being that doesn't need to be made clean and washed clean in some sense by God. 

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[00:27:21] And all of these rituals are just a part of that life to remind themselves of that, that actually we all need redeeming and saving. It's kind of like the way that we have communion today; why do we have rituals? Because they remind us of something really important that actually we need to have remembered. And when it comes to the issue of periods in particular-- I also think when it comes to laws around purity, rather than thinking, well, the thing that has the laws surrounding it must be dirty, actually, an Old Testament thought it's the other way around. That actually, if something is so important, so sacred, so valuable, that's when you particularly surround it with all sorts of laws about purity and doing things the right way. That's why we have so many laws about what God's temple in the Holy of Holies needs to be like, because it's so sacred that you want to have a kind of reverence around it. And that's why so many rituals are enforced. 

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[00:28:09] And this matters when it comes to periods, because actually one of the things that's so amazingly distinctive about women is that we get to have children. It's one of the ways I think we're uniquely made in the image of God differently from men. Is that we actually, in a way, get to do something that men can't do. We're bringing forth life in a particular way. It's an amazing thing. But because that's such a sacred and beautiful thing, the laws around it are important. And so, particularly when it comes to periods, it says in Leviticus chapter 17, the life is in the blood, and blood has a particular significance in the Old Testament because they had this understanding that blood signified life. It's why you can't eat an animal without draining it of blood first, because life belongs to God. The blood belongs to God in particular. 

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[00:28:54] We can see a little more about that in the sacrifice and Jesus. All of those things, but not today. But the point being that when you have your period, it's signifying death in some way. Because it could have been in life that have come forth, but actually you've had your period and so therefore, in this case, it hasn't brought forth life. And that is why they have a ritual around it. But not to say you're so bad that women are less than men, but actually to say the capacity to carry children is such a beautiful thing that you put rituals around it to signify the kind of sacredness of that. And just one more note on that is that actually because we read that if you give birth to a daughter, you have to go through the purifying period twice as long as if you'd give birth to a son. So, you read that and you're like, oh, is this the thing that women are just less valuable. Is that what's coming out in this text? 

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[00:29:36] Actually, no. I think it's, again, to do with periods. I've had a lot of friends who've given birth to daughters. And a lot of baby girls are born on their period; it's actually part of biology. And so, I just wonder if part of what's going on in this text is that there's an awareness of that, but a baby's too young to go through the process. And so, the mother's kind of taking it on behalf of the daughter. So, I just wonder if actually it's a kind of biological detail that is happening in the text. The other thing just to say about this is actually I think that's a bit of a kindness here. They didn't all the painkillers we can take to just power on when we're having like a tough time of the month. Some people really suffered when that comes around. But actually, it's saying, hey, you get to go off, you get to be in a tent, you're not doing the same work you'd be doing. It's actually kind of acknowledging and giving women rest. 

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[00:30:25] So I just wonder if actually there's a thoughtfulness to this passage rather than it just being something that we read and we think, wow, that's so oppressive. Sorry, I know there's some deep details, but I kind of wanted to give you some examples of some of the ways that we read these texts. And initially we think, what the heck is going on in these laws? But actually, when you dig into the culture and the history, what happened to me time and time again is I would start out with the text and be like, this is so oppressive. But then when I would dig in, I would actually come to discover that far from being anti-women, more often than not, the very reverse was going on. And it so built my confidence in the heart and the character of God for women. So, I would just say, when you come to these texts, don't run from them. Do some commentary work, get into community, read them together, go speak to some people, have some thoughtful conversations. Very often I think we see the heart of God displayed in a way that we haven't initially understood. Yes. Number four. 

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Audience Question [00:31:20] So the next question is, ‘in Proverbs, the speaker often warns his son about seductive women, as in Proverbs chapter 7 verse 23. Why is it a seductive woman and not a seductive man? And why is it often a woman that will lead a man to destruction and not the other way around? It kind of [inaudible].

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Jo Vitale [00:31:37] Fantastic question. And just to say, I think this is really important because it's kind of getting into the question of genre. Because when it comes to the Bible, I totally believe that it's the word of God and that he inspired it. But as Christians, we don't just think he wrote it all down on a slab and it descended from heaven. There's also a sense in which we very much believe it was written by people, and that God inspired that the Holy Spirit breathed it out through them. But there were humans involved in the writing of the whole Old Testament, and that's why the genre matters so much, right? It matters if you're reading a poem. It matters if it's history. It matters if it's lore, it matters if it's prophecy. We read all of it differently because that's how it was intended to be read differently. So, when it comes to the New Testament and we're looking at the letters, one of the questions we always ask is who is it written to? What was the context in this city? What was going on in that church like? What was happening? 

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[00:32:24] So Proverbs was at least partially written particularly for a group of men, and particularly for men who were within the court of the King. And we get some really interesting rules in there about table manners when you're seated at the King's table. It's that level of detail. So not the whole thing, but I think a lot of it was very much intended for a particular group of men who were being trained in the court about how to be godly men and godly leaders in that context. So, yeah, the reason you're picking up that it's male gaze driven is because in certain instances in those texts, it actually is. Now, before we all get up in arms about that, let me just say, you see the same the other way in the Old Testament as well. There are certain texts that I would say were written more for the female gaze. 

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[00:33:07] The Song Songs is predominantly in the female voice. A lot of it is about how she's looking at the man, how she's experiencing him. And there are a lot of phrases in there like my mother's house. It's a very female text in certain ways. So just to say, you get both in the Bible. But the point is that I think God can speak through all of it. And that he's creative enough, whichever text we're in, to find ways that is still going to speak to us, but yet we still want to make sense of who is it written for and how does it go? I also want to say that I think there's something quite profound about we were talking about God is male and the father language of God or judge or king or shepherd or a lot of words that seem male in the way that he's presented to us. But actually, I think it's really incredible that the most fundamental image of relationship with God throughout the Bible is that of covenant. 

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[00:33:54] And it's actually really a marital image. And this image of God as bridegroom is huge in Scripture. It runs all the way through. Heaven is depicted as a feast of the bridegroom, of God Himself marrying his church, who is the bride. And that's particularly imagery that is harder for men to enter into than women. I don't have a hard time thinking of God as bridegroom. That really speaks to my heart. Guys have a tougher time putting themselves in those shoes. So just to say, I think it goes both ways. I don't think it's just one or the other. The other thing I just want to say quickly about Proverbs is, yes, it's kind of male gaze driven in certain ways, but what is the message of it? Well, it's saying like, don't go off with prostitutes, but actually love and be faithful to the wife of your youth. I can get behind that. And also, yes, it personifies foolishness and sin and evil as deceptive women. And it can be hard for us to read it. It feels like a real caricature. 

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[00:34:44] But the flip of that is that wisdom, the wisdom of God, the Word of God is also personified as a woman. And so, you're seeing both actually, you're seeing both extremes of this image. And it's really incredible that you would talk about God and His word and his language and the wisdom of God as a female. That's actually a really profound image for us to grapple with as women. And finally, just to reflect on Proverbs 31, that whole chapter at the end of Proverbs that you can read as a woman and be like, this is an impossible list for me to hit, like, I cannot do everything that this woman is doing. But actually, it's not spoken as a list of things that women need to achieve, like some impossible standard. Actually, it's written as a song of praise spoken by a husband, praising and honoring his wife and calling her all these beautiful things that she does. And so, in a way, it's about recognizing female value and honoring it. So, I think there's a lot in Proverbs that actually is quite amazing in terms of how it's presenting women, even if it may have been intended to be written to guys in a particular context. All right. Number five. 

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Audience Question [00:35:45] The next question is transitioning more into the New Testament. ‘If the fruit of the spirit are love, patience, kindness, etc. - which are traits that seem more common or inherent to women than men. So, the question is, shouldn't generally women be held up as good examples to men and why [inaudible]? 

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Jo Vitale [00:36:06] I love that, and I would just say, yeah. Absolutely, I think I think that's really true. And I think that we see ways in which that is recognized in Scripture as well. For example, we hear so much in the Old Testament about the compassion of God, but actually the root word of compassion in Hebrew, it actually specifically comes out of the word for womb. And it's a particularly feminine, kind of mothering image of kind of like female emotion. And I just love that. The Lord gracious and compassionate. One of the primary words we hear to describe God is this word that as soon as you hear it in Hebrew, you're thinking of womb, you're thinking of mothering. And so, I think there is a recognition of the kind of the heart of women and love in particular, and the way that women can hold that. Jesus does the same thing, actually, he identifies with female emotion when he's in the last week of his life. 

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[00:36:55] He looks down on the city of Jerusalem and he says, like, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I long to gather you like a mother hen gathers her chicks." That's his heart towards his people. It's like this mothering image. I just want to shelter you under my wings. So, I think God recognizes that actually there's something about female emotion that we feel it because he feels it. It's reflective of his heart. So, I agree with that. I also think we do see women honored for it. We hear about women who find favor in the Bible. I think in part is to do with their character and who they are. Mary, Ruth, Esther a lot of them are exhibiting these kinds of traits and they're really honored for it in Scripture. The other thing to say is, the Gospel of Luke in particular, but actually all the Gospels intentionally, it seems, uphold women as an example of how to be faithful and devout disciples, in contrast with the men who run away. 

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[00:37:47] Consistently, you have the men questioning Jesus. He used to be like, get behind me, Satan. They're squabbling about who is the greatest. At the cross they all fled. They abandoned him. They deny him. And then you have the women who presented so often as being the ones who are present. Mary's there at the birth of Jesus. She's there at the cross. She's there. She's the bookends to his life. She's there for all of it. We hear about this group of women who are there when Jesus dies; they have not fled. They're there at the tomb, they're the one's going. They're the first witnesses to the resurrection. Women are actually really held up. 

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[00:38:22] And there's this amazing line, particularly spoken about Mary of Bethany, who anoints Jesus in the week before he dies. And Judas Iscariot is kind of in uproar because, like, "Look, Jesus poured out a year's worth of value of perfume on his feet. Could have been given to the poor." Like what a stupid, over-the-top female emotion. What a wasteful thing to do. You would just pour out all this thing. Like, how thoughtless are you? Women. This is why women can't be trusted with money. It seems to be the implication. But what does Jesus say? He loves it. He loves her heart. And literally he says, this story is going to be told whenever the gospel is preached throughout the world because she gets it what nobody else caught. That that is the right heart for me. 

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[00:39:06] And that's what we see of the women in the Gospels, that they love Jesus in this way that soaks it up and he loves them back for it. Like, there's this intimacy that the women in Jesus’ life understand about him. It's why they run to him and they feel so comfortable with him in this culture where constantly they're being othered and women are kind of shot down in that culture. And there's a lot of suspicion around women. And yet with Jesus, they run to him. They don't run away. And so, I think that's something that he gets that he sees as valuable in those feelings that women have. I think we see the same thing honored in the New Testament when it talks about in one Peter three about women having a quiet and gentle spirit, sometimes misunderstood as being quiet, not what it says. It's not saying sit down and shut up. 

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[00:39:51] It's saying something about a spirit of gentleness and of peacefulness, of knowing who you are and your identity before God. It says it's very precious to God. That when God sees that in women, I think that's a beautiful thing. So, yeah, I think there's a kind of honoring. I don't want to go too far down it, because I also want to say men can be gentle and loving, and I actually think they're explicitly encouraged to be. And I think it's that of Jesus, as a perfect example of what a man should be. What are we told about his heart? We're told he's gentle and humble of heart. And we told the meek will inherit the earth, and we're told that God is love. 

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[00:40:25] So this isn't an excuse to be like, well, women can own those things and men don't have to. But the gospel calls men to be all those gifts of the spirit. It's called out in them. But I do think sometimes that there's a spectrum in all these things with men and women. We can't just be like men are whatever and women are loving. It doesn't work that way. We all know that. But there can be character traits, there can be biological realities that lead to certain things forming within us. And I think that God celebrates those differences. 

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