Jo Vitale [00:00:35] So welcome to the podcast where we invite you to Ask Away.

Hi everyone. Welcome to Ask Away. I'm Jo Vitale. I'm here with Vince coming to you from a very cold garage in California today. 

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Vince Vitale [00:00:51] It’s garage for our American [crosstalk]. 

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Jo Vitale [00:00:53] Sorry, garage. 

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Vince Vitale [00:00:55] And you say it much nicer. 

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Jo Vitale [00:00:56] I do say it. I say most things much nicer. Yeah. I hope those of you who are in America had a great Thanksgiving holiday week. For those of you who didn't, I hope that you've just been encouraged and have reasons to feel thankful in your life at the moment. We had a really nice time, actually. We went over to a friend's giving at one of our friend's homes and they took the opportunity to make it really meaningful, actually. They decided to invite a whole load of friends around and then they turned it into a Q&A before dinner. And so we had the chance just to hear some really thoughtful questions from some of their friends about the Christian faith. And I spent about an hour before dinner just engaging with those questions, having a really good discussion before moving into dinner. And it was just such a nice evening of really meaningful conversation. It was a joy and a privilege. 

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Vince Vitale [00:01:44] Work well before dinner. After dinner might have been some people sleeping on the couch after that. But before dinner worked well. 

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Jo Vitale [00:01:52] Yeah, that would have been too hard. That would have been meltdowns, mainly mine. But before was great. But one question that really stood out to us from that evening that we really appreciated came from somebody who asked what happens to people who have never heard the gospel like my grandparents? Will I see them in heaven? And we just thought, you know what? That is a question that a lot of people ask. It's the question that we've actually had a number of others right into the podcast about. So we thought, well, why don't we actually take this opportunity just to engage with that question today so that more of you can think through that with us. 

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Vince Vitale [00:02:26] Yeah, I really like this question, partly because I think we can learn so much from it that the first thing it reminds me of is that whenever you receive a question, always start by asking who is this question about? That will keep your answer relational. And in this instance, the people who asked this question, they told us. They told us the question is about their grandparents. But even when it's not explicitly stated, there's so often you might say like an object behind an objection or perhaps better to say a subject behind the objection. An objection is almost always about a person. It's motivated by a person or multiple people that the questioner cares about and is concerned about. And if you can figure out who that is, that's already a huge step toward giving a helpful response. 

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Jo Vitale [00:03:12] Yeah. And I think particularly when you think about this question, it's actually really helpful because behind this question of what about those who haven't heard, even that question can go in a lot of directions about the different people who might not have had. Perhaps it's a loved one or family member like was in the case of this particular individual. But sometimes it may be people you don't know, but you're just worried about them in general. Or perhaps it's people who haven't heard the name of Jesus at all. Or it may be people who have heard some form of the gospel because they grew up in a sort of culturally Christian nation, but they haven't really had it presented clearly. Or it might be people who haven't heard because they were alive before Jesus. Or it might be people who perhaps can't really hear because of other challenges that they have, whether mental or physical disabilities that prevent them from hearing in the way that you might need to hear in order to fully comprehend the gospel. 

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[00:04:03] So there can be so many different ideas and people in our minds behind these questions that it's just worth if you don't already from the question diving deeper before you jump into it. But one of the other things that this question reminds me of is actually one of the things that I love most about questions, which is that the assumption embedded within our questions often teaches us a lot about what we really believe and sometimes even more so than the answers that we wind up receiving. So, for example, with this question, the first thing to recognize is that really this is a question about fairness, isn't it? The assumption behind it is it's not fair that I would have a chance to come to know Jesus when my grandparents didn't have that chance. And this is true. So many of the common objections towards God. If you dig down to the real motivation behind the question, you eventually wind up hitting some kind of exclamation of it's not fair! For example, why did God allow bad things to happen to good people? It's not fair. Why does God say sex is allowed for some people but not for others? Why does some people get to be the gender they feel they should be, but some people don't. Isn't Christianity sexist or patriarchal? 

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[00:05:11] Are women treated in a way that implies they're inferior or less valuable to man? Or with respect to hell, people often ask how could God allow an infinite punishment for finite crimes? And you know all of these questions in one way or another, they're going in different directions. But fundamentally, they're expressing a concern about fairness. As soon as the conversation becomes about fairness, I get really excited because I just think that is a fantastic starting point for any conversation because there's actually an underappreciated argument from fairness to the existence of God. I mean, just think about it. Without God, unfairness is just the way it is; isn't it? It's just was built into the system that there's no rhyme, there's no reason in our universe to expect fairness. No reason to think we're owed it or entitled to it. Of course, things are going to be unfair in a randomly generated materialistic universe that's just totally indifferent to you and your desires and you wants and your needs. 

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[00:06:10] But we all of us, believers and unbelievers alike, have this deep sense that actually things are supposed to be fair. There's something in us that it's that exclamation of it's not fair! It's so very instinctive to us. And so where does that come from? Well, let's keep thinking that through down to the next level. Some of you guys will have heard Vince say this before. But the reason we think all people should be treated fairly is because we believe people are all equally valuable. We have this assumption that everybody is equally valuable to the next person. But for that to be true, there has to actually be something that is equally true of every single person. And so what is that thing? Because most things in life are on a spectrum, aren't they? But what is that? What could you identify in somebody that is the same of every single person and makes them equally valuable and therefore gives some kind of rationale or grounding to this conviction we have that all people should be treated fairly? 

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[00:07:07] And we've said it before, but when you really think about that, the only answer I think you can really give to that question is that we are all equally valuable because we are all equally loved by God. That is the only thing that isn't on a spectrum. But, of course, if God doesn't exist, then that isn't actually true, is it? Then we're not actually all equally valuable. And then we shouldn't actually all hope or expect to all be treated fairly. So what we're getting to here is that actually we love this question because I feel like the Christian faith values this question of fairness and actually makes sense of the question of fairness. It really affirms the significance of that underlying feeling of those of us who are asking those kind of questions. 

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Vince Vitale [00:07:49] Yeah, I love that. And I really do find that helpful in so many conversations to just help people see that their question is actually a question about fairness. Can we treat that subject first before we get to the specifics of the question? Can be so helpful and do you see how significant this is in terms of the way we approach questions. Like whenever we get a tough question, we want to start by finding the fundamental concern underlying the question, and then we actually want to affirm it and build from it. So we're not looking to say you're wrong. I'm right. That gets us nowhere. We're looking to say you're right but there's more. In any objection, there's almost always something you can affirm and something you can deny. And if you learn anything from Jo and me-- maybe you don't, but if you learn anything from us, let it be to train yourself to look for what's right before you look for what's wrong. We need to work hard at this because in today's culture it's angry, it's polarized. We are so strongly tempted to do the opposite. It's so tempting to just come in guns blazing. And only once we have thoroughly destroyed someone's position, then we feel a bit badly about it and so we throw in a token encouragement at the end of our answer as a parting footnote. 

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Jo Vitale [00:08:59] There, the worst. 

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Vince Vitale [00:09:01] The ordering is all wrong. Go read about how Jesus engaged with the objections of a Samaritan woman in John four, or how Paul engaged with the objections of Athenian philosophers in Acts 17. When Jesus and Paul were dealing with genuine seekers, maybe not the religious elite hypocrites but with genuine seekers, they lead with the positive. They find something good and they affirm it. Why? Well, I like to think of engaging another person's worldview a bit like a home renovation TV show. I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, Jo. But they're kind of like this image that I have in my mind. You can't do a good renovation if there's nothing to work with. There needs to be something you find value in in the house and you can salvage and work with as your starting point. You need to be able to say, we're going to unearth the classic brick fireplace behind this wall or we're going to expose the really cool wooden beams above the ceiling. And it's actually the same approach when we start thinking about the frame or construction of a person's belief system. 

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[00:10:06] If you find something that's right in a person's question, you can build on it. You can take that as your starting point. You can say, let's take what's good in your belief and then reconstruct something beautiful around it. But if all you find in a person's question is what's wrong, then you have no choice but to demolish it, dismantle it, and then you have no starting point to build from. And at the same time, what have you told your conversation partner about asking questions? You've told them it's a stupid thing to do because it leads to them and their beliefs getting demolished, which is the exact opposite of what we want to communicate about questions because questions are how you get to know people and therefore they're how you get to know God. I find it really interesting how I instinctively get this right when it comes to my little children, but wrong when it comes to adults. So when my kids Rafael and JJ ask a question, even if there's a lot wrong with their question, they use the wrong words they pronounce them wrongly they don't fully understand the concepts; nevertheless, I just instinctively immediately say that is such a great question, Rafael. And you want me to tell you why? And then I find something really good about his question, and I use that as my launching point to explain something to him about the world. And I love it. 

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[00:11:22] And it's such a privilege and it's so much fun with my kids. I'm actually good at this. But then when an adult asks me a tough question, I have this opposite instinct that I find within myself and I need to fight against it, where my brain immediately jumps to whatever is wrong with their question like whatever confusions or misunderstandings they might have. And I have this instinct to focus my attention right away on why they're wrong and I'm right. That's a very different instinct than the way I answer questions with my children. And I did some self-reflection on that this morning. And I think part of the explanation for this is because I think of my children primarily as people to be cared for, but there's something in my sinful flesh that thinks of other adults as people to be in competition with. So I really need to fight that temptation in my heart. And maybe some of you can relate. When you build from someone's objection, you actually honor them and you encourage them to keep asking and keep seeking. When you just dismantle and demolish their objection, they're left standing in ruins and that's not hopeful or encouraging to anyone. Jo's going to make fun of me for this last comment, but remind yourself to find the quest in the question. Okay. I know. 

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Jo Vitale [00:12:45] No, that's horrible. Don't do it. 

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Vince Vitale [00:12:45] [Inaudible] going to hear that over dinner and say I know it's cheesy. It's cheesy, but because it's cheesy you remember it. And it's actually true. Find the good desire behind the question. And then as CS Lewis put it, show that that desire is not too strong. It's actually too weak. And that if we feel the full and rightful force of the desire, we will actually find that it can only be fulfilled in God. So we say let's not just consider the desire for fairness in this or that specific instance, but let's consider our fundamental desire for fairness itself, for fairness to actually be a guiding value of the universe and somehow embedded into the bedrock of reality. And now let me show you how that is only possible if we put our trust in God. 

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Jo Vitale [00:13:31] See, I knew you pretended like you went watching those home renovation shows, but I knew that in the background you [crosstalk]. 

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Vince Vitale [00:13:38] Yeah, I'm just glad they were good for something. 

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Jo Vitale [00:13:41] Yeah. In my fixer upper era. You're welcome. Okay, so now we have a sense of the posture and approach that we want to take to this question, but we also want to ask whether there might be any misunderstandings or misconceptions about God that are motivating the question. And in this case, there can be because typically underlying this kind of question about people who've never heard of Jesus is the assumption that God is going to punish people simply through some kind of bad luck, that they never had the chance to hear about him. And I think the assumption is that God reveals himself to some people, but not to others. And if you're just in the unlucky or neglected or overlooked category, then too bad for you. And what does that say about God? Well, it says he is kind of unjust or he's unloving. And it gives us the impression that God desires some people, but not others that he loves some and not others. But that's actually not what the Bible says. I think that's a caricature of Christianity that we need to not accept and to help people to see that actually that is not God's hearts. 

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[00:14:45] One Timothy two says that God desires all to be saved and two peter three says he does not want anyone to perish. I think the Bible is also clear that we are responsible for what we do know, but not for what we don't due to bad luck or the brokenness of the world and the circumstances that we happen to be born into. I found this comment from John Piper really helpful, actually. He says that no one will be judged for not obeying revelation they did not have. We will all be judged according to the knowledge of the truth we have access to. All of us. Every human being on the planet has access to the knowledge of God that he is to be thanked and that he is to be glorified with all the implications that carries that. Now, when Piper makes that statement, he's referencing Romans one where Paul says, verse 18, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. Since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claim to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.". 

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[00:16:20] So the claim of the Bible is not that God reveals himself to some people, but not others. And if you don't get dealt a good hand of cards, well, then too bad for. The Bible says that God has revealed himself to everyone. It says that we all have some knowledge of him through creation around us and our conscience within us. And God makes sure that everyone has had a significant revelation of who he is. And so the question then is whether we respond to whatever revelation we have received with Thanksgiving and a desire to live with God or by suppressing that truth so that we can live our own way. And I think we've got to be honest with ourselves here that so often the issue is actually that we haven't responded well to what he's revealed about himself, that we have so often suppressed that awareness of his presence rather than acknowledging him and turning towards him with openness and with the seeking heart. Sure, some of us may have received more knowledge than others, more explicit introduction to the Gospel than others, but God knows that. And he will judge us based on what we do know. We can't sort that out, but he can. And so, therefore, I think the question becomes could God be powerful enough and loving enough to make sure everyone has a real chance to respond to him at some point in their lives, to respond to the grace that he's offering to each of us through Jesus the fullest revelation of God and the means by which we truly can be saved. Because outside of him, none of us are in a position to save ourselves. 

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[00:17:49] And you know what? My conviction is that God is big enough to do that, to make sure that everyone has a fair opportunity through creation or a conscience or through dreams, through an angel showing up at your door, through someone randomly delivering a Bible. And in the way that he seemingly pursues people more and more earnestly as they approach their deathbeds. My God says that he is fair and he is powerful and loving enough to make good on that promise. And I would say that this question it probably used to better me more when I was younger. I think I really felt the weight of it. I even had some anxiety around it and kind of presumptive of me, but assuming that actually I cared more about it somehow than God did. But now I'm not so troubled by it anymore. And I don't think I hope that it's not because I care less now about other people. I think it's more that I actually trust God more. I actually believe him more. I actually have over the years have come to know him better and seen him work in such profound and powerful and radical and outrageous ways to pursue people and love them and do everything to be drawing them into relationship with himself. That I don't question or doubt any more that God's heart, his desire is towards drawing people into relationship with him and that he is doing everything to make that happen. And so I think there's a sense in which it sort of unburdens me not to care less, but to trust him more and to therefore live more freely, even as I seek to share the gospel in my own life with other people. 

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Vince Vitale [00:19:22] And note here that it's only if God exists that access to truth can be fair in this way. This idea that Romans one is talking about unbelievers, that every person has in some way received knowledge of God, that they have a free opportunity to respond to that is only possible if God exists. On atheism access to truth is inevitably unfair. Then what we believe is absolutely determined by where we're born, how we're brought up, etc. All the random work-based features of our lives. If atheism were true, it would truly be an unfair worldview. It would be highly exclusive as a belief system because it's such a minority belief. Only a small percentage of people who live in a certain place and time and culture could even come to believe in atheism. Like atheist and would only be alive option for such a small percentage of the people who have lived over the course of human history. So again, only God has the ability to transcend the luck and ensure that each person is reached with knowledge of the truth in some way, whether through natural means or miraculous means. And I am so thankful to have the faith that all can have access to and that can break in anywhere and at any moment. I have seen God reveal Himself in the most extraordinary ways, in the most unlikely circumstances. He can do it, and only he can do it. 

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Jo Vitale [00:20:52] I guess some people, though, might still say, well, why doesn't God reveal himself equally to everyone? And I think that could mean a couple of different things, actually, couldn't it? On the one hand, it could mean why doesn't he revealed himself in the same way. And then I think the second part of that idea is that why doesn't he reveal himself to the same degree? So maybe, Vince, I'll speak to the first part of that and you can address the second one. But I think when it comes to thinking about why doesn't God reveal himself in the same way to every single person, well, I think for me that sort of comes down to this thought that we're unique individuals and so God reveals himself uniquely to each one of us. Think about a dating relationship, right? For some people, a quicker courtship is better, and for some a slower and more cautious approach is better. And I've seen both work really well in terms of leading into loving, long lasting marriage or relationships. But it really just depends on the individual. You can't just treat everybody the same. I think about the way Vince proposed to me. It was very public. It was in front of a whole roomful of people up on a stage and I loved it, but my sister would have hated it. We're not all the same person and God knows that about us. He knows that better than anybody. He's the one he made us. 

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[00:22:05] He understands what it is that we need and how we desire to be loved and how we respond to love and how we receive it. And I think the same would be true with our children. They are psychologically very different and wonderfully unique in their own ways. But it would be a terrible idea for me to treat my children equally. If by equally we meant always treating them in the same ways. I do want to treat them fairly, but I don't want to treat them the same. No, I need to understand them way more deeply than that and to care for them by treating each of them in the ways that are actually loving and good for them as individuals. And sometimes that can actually make it look on the surface as if I'm being unfair because this is the subtle distinction between treating people fairly and treating them equally. But it's a loving and important distinction that even if sometimes children might have trouble grasping at, a parent can grasp it and can see the wisdom in it because they understand how that child is being formed and actually what they need. And I think something similar is true between us and our Heavenly Father as well. 

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[00:23:09] Very often we just want what he gives to other people around us, but we need to trust him more than we are trusting ourselves about what it is that we actually need or what it is that other people need. Because often it's directed to others, isn't it? We think God why can't you just zap them? Why can't you just move in their life right now and just show up and change everything right now? But we have these instincts that we want to control how God does things and what we want to want what others have. But just as it would be this bad idea for me to treat my children equally, if by equally we mean the same, I think it is the same with God as well. And so sometimes on the surface it might look unfair, but it's just different. Some people need God to show up in the revelation of something dramatic like an earthquake. For other people it's the still small voice. Some people need to respond right now, right away. For other people, it's a long journey. But I think we can trust him as the God who makes everything beautiful in its time and the one who actually knows the end from the beginning when we just have no clue. 

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Vince Vitale [00:24:07] Yeah. So if you're not yet a believer and you're listening to this show now, you know that Jo is praying for God to zap you. 

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Jo Vitale [00:24:13] In love. 

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Vince Vitale [00:24:14] I'm not sure if that encourages you or discourages you. 

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Jo Vitale [00:24:16] It's like a good zap. 

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Vince Vitale [00:24:18] A good zap. 

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Jo Vitale [00:24:22] Wave a magic wand. 

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Vince Vitale [00:24:22] Right. So, that's really helpful, Jo. Okay, so now what about the degree to which God has revealed himself? Someone might still say even if God did not reveal himself the same way to each person, shouldn't he still reveal himself to people to the same degree? And my initial instinct when I say that is to say, well, maybe he does. Our perspective is so limited. We need to consistently remind ourselves of that. It's so hard for us to see how God is reaching into a person's heart and even our own hearts we often can't really grasp. And then how he might be revealing himself further and further to those whose hearts are responding with a desire for more of him. He's not going to force himself into our lives, but he responds to that desire. And just because one person has a church on the corner of their street and another person doesn't does not mean that God is reaching out more strongly to the one than the other. I've known so many people with a church next door who have had so little sense of the actual nature of the gospel and of who God is. And then I've known so many people who, based on where they live and how they grew up, should know absolutely nothing about God. 

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[00:25:26] And yet in their hearts, they have this incredible sensitivity of him and awareness of him. And we also tend to think in terms of a snapshot of a person's life, like when I picture a person I picture them at a very specific place, at a very specific point in time, rather than seeing the entirety, the entire timeline of a person's life from God's perspective. If we saw things from his wider vantage point, if we knew all of the ways that he has reached out to each individual, big and small, from the very beginning of their life, to the very last moment when no other voice can reach them but God's voice still can, would we see things differently? Would we see God's fairness as he lovingly and tenderly and tenaciously pursues each heart? I believe maybe we would. 

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Jo Vitale [00:26:11] Yeah. That's so good, isn't it? Because we just have such a limited perspective, but it's so hard to acknowledge that. But the thing that helps me with this question is that even when I feel like I don't have the full answer, I don't understand God how you're going to work all of this out. I can still trust him with this question because I really do believe that it is his objection as well. Because we see that even in the life of Jesus, that actually this is Jesus's objection. Just consider the start and the finish of Jesus life. The two bookends that first he's announced a magi from the east, these foreign astrologer, magicians who would have worshiped foreign gods, but they're right there at the beginning when Jesus enters into the world. They are the first people included following that star to come and worship him. And then the story of Jesus life ends with the great Commission. What is the great commission? To go and make disciples of all nations. Jesus won't just keep it to a limited number of people. He sends us out. 

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[00:27:07] And that has always been the missional heart of God from the very beginning. All the way back in the Old Testament when he chose the people of Israel to be a blessing to the world. Isaiah 45, he says, "Turn to me be saved all you ends of the earth. For I am God, there is no other." It was always about that global perspective. And I trust him because I can see that this is at the very heart of who he is. This is so fundamental to the God that we know that he's this God of revelation, who is always, always, always reaching out, always pursuing. And so, this is a good objection, but it's God's objection. And part of his response to it is he's asked us to go out and do something about it. I just find it interesting this question of what about people who've never had is always asked by people who have heard. It's always asked by people who've had. So the question is what do we who have had doing about it? 

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Vince Vitale [00:28:01] Yes. And Jo, that point highlights another general principle about questions that I try to remember whenever we receive a question or an objection. When we ask a question about God or about anyone for that matter, it's always good practice to turn it around and ask it of ourselves as well. And if you're listening to this podcast, then God has reached out to you. He is reaching out to you right now. And sometimes-- not all the time, but sometimes asking what about those who don't know can be a way of avoiding turning the question around and asking what about those of us who do know? What about those of us who have heard? What are we doing, as Jo says, with that knowledge that we have received? 

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Jo Vitale [00:28:44] Yeah. So I think one reflection here is, of course, the world is unfair because we're living in a world that isn't the way God intended for it to be. It is full and is broken. But that unfairness that we see in the world, it should drive us towards two things, right? To treasure what we have been given and to do everything that we can to share with others. Just think about the way you treat food. It's tragic that some of us have food in this world and other people are starving. But the way we honor those who don't have it is not by wasting it or just taking it for granted. It's not by saying, well, if they're not eating, I'm not going to eat either. That doesn't help anybody. But what's our starting point? We appreciate what we have. We be thankful for it. And then, of course, we do everything we can to share it with others. 

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[00:29:28] And I just think we disrespect those in the same way who you haven't heard when we take for granted the gift of spiritual of food that we've been given. And so we need to value what we have been given spiritually and not just say, well, no, if other people don't have it, then I'm not going to take it either. Sometimes people use this question as their excuse, their objection for why they won't respond to the gospel? But it's like, well, you have heard so how are you going to value this gift, this amazing opportunity that you're being given right now? This is your chance to respond. And then once you've responded, then you're in a very good position to then be able to do something about your own objection about unfairness by taking it and sharing it with others. 

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Vince Vitale [00:30:07] And this gets us right back to the specific concern of today's question about our listener's grandparents or our friends from our Thanksgiving dinner, their grandparents. And we found Jo and I over the years many times when this question is raised, it's because people are struggling with the fact that either their unbelieving friends or family members have already died. And the concern is how can I believe if that means believing that my parents or my grandparents never knew God and never received salvation? Now, on the one hand, even though we can say biblically and with confidence that salvation is only through Jesus, I don't think it's our place to put specific individuals in one category or another in terms of their eternal destiny. If we didn't have the historical record in the gospels of the thief on the cross and none of us had heard that conversation between him and Jesus, when Jesus said, "Today, you'll be with me in Paradise," after the thief responded humbly and recognized his own sin before Jesus and put his trust in him; if we didn't have the record of that, nobody would have been looking at that thief on the cross and thinking this is someone who is going to spend eternity with Jesus. But God is in the place to see that; we are not in the place to make judgments about the final state of someone's heart. 

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[00:31:31] But I also think the very best way to honor our unbelieving ancestors is to find the truth and to commit to the truth. Imagine if your parents died from smoking at a time when people didn't have a clear sense of just how bad cigarettes are for you. And even if they did have that knowledge, but they suppressed it or they refused to believe it or to act on it, it would not honor them to turn a blind eye to the evidence and refuse to believe that smoking is bad or that it contributed to their death. Imagine if you refused to believe this and refused to teach your kids that cigarettes are unhealthy just because you didn't want to think that your parents had it wrong. Not only would that be irrational, but it would not honor your parents. In fact, that would be the very last thing your parents would want you to do. The very last thing that parents want for their children is for them to make the same mistakes that they made. It actually dishonors one's parents to repeat their mistakes and even in some way to make them responsible for those mistakes being passed on to the next generation or to the family. 

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[00:32:39] Parents want their children to learn from their mistakes. They want you to change the family lineage for the better. That's what they hoped for. That's what they hope most for you. That's why they invested so much in caring for you. The way you honor them and their investment and their sacrifices is precisely by taking the baton from them and not stopping where they were, but continuing to learn and continually striving to do better than they did. If you said to me, "How can you ask me to believe that cigarettes are bad for you when my parents died after smoking two packs a day?" I'd say as your friend, how could I not ask you to believe the truth about cigarettes and to make sure that you and your children have the chance to live a better and they healthier life? That is exactly what your parents and grandparents wanted for you. And most importantly, when it comes to the reality of who God is, that is what God wants for you. It is what he created you for and it is what He is graciously inviting you into. 

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Jo Vitale [00:33:38] Yeah, that's right. We have a God who created us for life. And for coming back to where we started, that underlying assumption behind the question I think it's the assumption that somehow we've been treated unfairly. But what [inaudible] actually saying is that we think it's the total opposite; that actually it's us who've been treated fairly. And quite to the contrary, it was Jesus who was treated unfairly. We actually have received a revelation of God. All of us, in one way or another, God has been reaching out to us. As Romans says, we are without excuse. And we weren't entitled to that. God didn't need to do that. It's not like we deserved or we earned in any way. He's doing that entirely out of love for us even when we have shown no desire to seek him. If we love him, it's because he loved us first. That's the way round that this is. There's no sense in which we deserve this somehow. And yet we have received revelation God is reaching out to us astonishingly. 

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[00:34:40] If we've been treated unfairly, it's because we're getting more than we deserve, not less. Whereas, Jesus, the only person who deserved perfect relationship with God, the only one who had a right to that, who was entitled to be intimate with him and to have a full revelation of him. He experienced forsakenness in his relationship with his father on the cross for our sake. And that is just staggering to me. The lengths to which God has gone to work so hard to treat us more than fairly that he was willing to be treated unfairly for us. And it's for that reason that I believe that we can trust him. Yes, this world is unfair, but God has never been unfair to us. Far from it. He himself stepped into it and he himself was one who suffered a great deal of unfairness for our sake, so that we can have absolute confidence that even if we don't always understand the times and the seasons and how God is working behind the scenes and what he's doing all over the world and in one person's life for another, we can have confidence that he has a good, loving God and that he will be fair to every single one of us. 

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