Jo Vitale [00:00:35] So welcome to the podcast where we invite you to Ask Away. Hi everyone! Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Ask Away, and thank you for the fantastic questions you've been sending in, which we're excited to engage with. If you have a question you want to ask, you can find out how to do so at the end of the episode. This week, we're sharing with you a recent Ask Anything event, at Bay Area Community Church in Indianapolis, where the audience were asking a whole range of questions, including how do I know God's will? How can God bring good out of bad? And what happens to those who never get to hear about Jesus? We were joined for Q&A by Shawn Hart, a very dear friend of ours who we're sure you'll love learning from as much as we always do. Here's Ask Away. 

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Brooke [00:01:30] My name is Brooke [sp]. I'm new to the church. I've been here for about eight weeks now. I've never read the Bible before. I've grew up Catholic, and so I listen to it, but I never really learned it. You all are amazing teachers. But I do have some challenges with some of the, I guess-- what's the word? Sometimes things don't really shake up. There's some contradictions within it. And so I listen. So a few weeks ago we learned about Herod and Abraham and Ishmael, and I was listening to that story. Everyone's like, oh, it's such a beautiful story. This 86-year-old man impregnated his servant. And then then the servant left because mom was really pissed about this, right? And I'm thinking, how is this a beautiful story? I don't understand, it sounds like there's a lot of trauma in that story for me. And so I was wondering how I, as a reader of the Bible, can kind of maybe-- do I need to go back into that time period? I'm struggling with that notion of the Bible. 

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Jo Vitale [00:02:24] I'm so happy that you-- I thank you for asking that question, Brooke, because it's not just your question, it's the question of so many people. It's why I wound up doing a piece in the Old Testament, because I had so many questions about passages in the Bible, and especially to do with the treatment of women. And that was one of them for me, actually. What's going on with Hagar? Like, how does this happen? Why is this here? So thank you for asking. And one thing I always want to say, because sometimes Christians super unhelpfully say, "Hey, if you just want to get to know Christianity, just go ahead and read the Bible." And without any kind of introduction, preface, how do you read the Bible? Just jump in. And then people just start reading through now like, what the heck is going on? I don't understand any of this stuff. So sometimes we need some help to know what is the point even in some of these texts, like why are they here? God, why did you think this was worthy of being in the-- this was supposed to be the Word of God. And to that question in particular, I would just say sometimes what happens, especially when it comes to the Old Testament, you have this idea that the Old Testament is a book of moral tales. And in every story that we read, people are being upheld as the standard by which we should live. Typically, the Old Testament actually goes the other way that so many of the stories in there are not there to commend the behavior of how people are acting, but actually it's to condemn it. It's actually to show, hey, this is the reality. This is how broken the world has got, and this is who we are as human beings. 

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[00:03:44] I think of the Bible as kind of like holding up a mirror to who we really are. And that can be really, really hard and really painful when you read about situations that are genuinely traumatic and even triggering of trauma in your own life, of things that you have been through that were deeply hurtful. But I actually think in the same breath, I'm so glad the Bible isn't a book of fairy tales. Because if the Bible wasn't full of reality, then it couldn't speak to my reality. So I think what we find in the Old Testament is actually this picture of the story of a God who is pursuing his people, and who is trying to reach out to them in love again and again, but people are just messing up and messing up and messing up. It's not a story of saints. It's actually a story of sinners and the God who just keeps coming after them because he loves them, not because they're doing meritorious things. And so when I think of Hagar in particular, to me it is a beautiful story, but not because I look at it and I think this is great. It's horrible. It's the perfect example of travesty and sin. I mean, it's abusive. The treatment of Hagar is abusive, sexually abusive. She's physically abused by her mistress, Sarah. The whole situation is horrible. She's so vulnerable. She couldn't be more underprivileged in her culture. She's a slave. She's a female. She's a foreigner. She's impregnated by this man. It's a nightmare situation. And yet what happens to Hagar, when she flees into the desert and she's literally at the point of like, I'm just going to die, I have no hope, God appears to her. 

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[00:05:10] A messenger from God actually comes and appears. And it's the first theophany in the Bible, which means it's the first time that anyone has any kind of angelic vision or visitation. And of all people that it could have been, God comes to her. She's the one who is chosen. And then we have this stunning line that she says after her encounter with God. But God basically lets her know, like, I see what you're going through, and I recognize that it's awful, but I want you to know that I am here and that I love you, and that I see you and that I'm going to protect you. And, ultimately, I'm going to bring you out of this situation, and I will provide for you, and I will give you a future. And then we're told that Hagar actually gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her. She says, you are the God who sees me. She says, I'm now seeing the one who sees me. And so for me, that's why I love it. Because in all of the mess and all of the tragedy which mirrors our life today, she has an encounter with God who sees her. And I think that's ultimately what we're all hoping for as well. Is there anyone who knows, who cares, who sees my suffering, who says this isn't okay? The story is not there to say it's okay, it's to show just how devastatingly far we've fallen, but how there's a God who keeps seeing, and he keeps pursuing and he keeps coming for us. She's actually the only person in the whole Bible who gets to name God. Everybody else God tells them his name. She gets to give him a name. And I think how beautiful that a victim of sexual abuse and suffering like that, she's the one who gets to give God a name, a name that anyone who's been through trauma like that can also call him as well and know God in that way that you're the God who sees me. 

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Brooke [00:06:41] You are incredible, Jo. You're amazing. Thank you. 

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Jo Vitale [00:06:44] No, I just go mad about that text.

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Joe [00:06:48] Thank you for the explanation of love, I appreciate it. Well, I haven't spoken in front of a group in a long time. I'm going to do it. So I'm a new believer in Jesus, always pleasing God the father. Didn't really understand him. I still haven't gotten there yet, but I am following Jesus. Yeah. I know that the saying that's a conflict to me and some people that I'm trying to convince to believe in Jesus, is to keep hearing-- well, my uncle had this bad thing happen. Well, that's what God wanted. It was God's plan. And God's plan, I do believe in. But exactly what it is, is the question. So the real question is, I feel-- and I'm not sure that we have to take responsibility. God gave us the brain, the heart, the flesh, everything, the spirit. And he says, okay, Joe-- in my case, I'm Joe. Go do something with it. Go do it. Be active. Proactive. And I believe I remember we had a sermon that God wants us to work. Not necessarily just work for a company, but work. Do something. Don't just sit around and wait for God to take care of everything is, I guess, what I'm getting around to. So how would you explain to them that all the things that have happened good or bad in your life were God's plan? But shouldn't we take a lot of responsibility on our own for that? 

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Vince Vitale [00:08:25] It's a wonderful question. And it's quite amazing because I was just having a long text conversation with my best friend who's on his own journey to faith, asking specifically this question about God's plan. And this was helpful for him. And maybe it will be for you as well. But to think about the distinction between God's plan and God's will, and whether perhaps there's a differentiation there. I believe God does have plans throughout history. He had a plan to come as the person of Jesus at a specific point. God's plan can be as detailed as he desires it to be, because he's the God of the universe. But I also do believe that he's given us free will. He has made us such that we can take responsibility for the steps that we take in life. And there's meaningfulness that comes from that. And yet there's something we can be utterly assured of when we talk about his will. And it actually says in the scriptures, it says, "Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." So it's so interesting to me anyway, that so often we're having conversations about I wonder what God's will is. I wonder what God's will is. And I get it because sometimes we're asking about a specific instance, but I find it quite reassuring and freeing to know that actually there's a passage in the scriptures which tells me specifically, this is God's will for my life, for me to rejoice always, pray continually, and give thanks in all circumstances. And one of the reasons I find that so freeing is that even as I make choices sometimes that align with God's plan, sometimes maybe that don't align with God's best, that doesn't mean that now I'm on Plan B or I'm on plan C. 

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[00:10:19] And in one sense, that would elevate myself too high to say that, well, I'm above God and I was able to ruin God's plan. But the beauty, I believe, of the way that God works in our lives is that whatever decisions we have made, for good or for bad, we are still in a circumstance-- every one of us in this room is still in a place where we can make a decision to surrender ourselves to God. And if we do, I believe he promises that he can put the love into our heart and the freedom into our heart such that we could rejoice always, even in the most difficult of circumstances, we could pray continually. No matter what is going on around you, you can always speak to God and know that he hears you and sense him speaking back to you and give thanks in all circumstances in even the most difficult of circumstances. If what Joe has spoken about is true, that God's love for you is unconditional and cannot be changed by anything that you ever do, or anything that could ever be done to you, then you could give thanks in all circumstances. And so it may be at times that God is leading specifically to a certain plan, a certain best that that he has for you. And sometimes our freewill decisions are going to align with that. That's wonderful. But when they don't, that doesn't mean, well, we've missed it. We've missed what God has for us. Now we're on plan B, plan C, plan D. Our God is bigger than that. And he calls us to these beautiful things of the heart in terms of who we can be when we live life together with him, and that possibility is open to every person in the room, no matter where you are or what you're going through right now or what you have been through in the past. 

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Jo Vitale [00:12:02] You talked about living in God's will and God's plan. I think it's a helpful framework for us to helping us think through what God causes and what God allows. You mentioned when bad things happen. And it's easy to look at that and think, well, that just mean God did it. Like, God did evil. Like, God did a terrible thing if this happened versus what you meant. What are we responsible for versus what is God doing? And I think one sense we get from Scripture, even in the way that language is used, is that sometimes the sense of the text is that God allows something to happen, other times it's that he causes it. And I think there's space for both within God's plan. It may not always be his will. He doesn't want you to suffer. He doesn't want terrible things to happen. He's grieved by sin, but he does allow it. So there's a sense in which is put into his plan. Now, why does he allow it? Because he loves us. And love requires freedom of the will to choose both the good and the bad. And it's a terribly painful choice he made, but he allowed it because it was the only way love was possible. But I think sometimes working through that language, like, we have an example in the Old Testament where we hear about Pharaoh. And we're told in the text he hardened his heart and wouldn't let the Israelites go. But there were three different ways the phrase is used actually in the Hebrew. It says, God hardened his heart and Pharaoh hardened his own heart and Pharaoh's heart was hardened. And so everyone's like, well, which one is it? But I think the point is, it's speaking to both. Pharaoh made a choice. He chose to not show love, to not show grace, to be an oppressor of the Israelites. But God still allowed that to happen. Why did he allow it even though it was a terrible thing? Because actually out of it he brought a plan and a purpose. And there's a line in the Bible that says, "What you intended for evil, God intended for good." And I think that's how I often understand the difference between will and plan. He doesn't will evil. It's against his very nature because he's loving, but he does sometimes allow it because he will work through it to bring good. 

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Vince Vitale [00:13:48] But sometimes the tensions within the faith, sometimes you see a tension and even the first question is, well, is there a contradiction here? Sometimes some of the beauty is precisely in the tension because when you look at other ancient religions, you tend to get one of two ends of the spectrum on your question. Either, yes, there's a plan, but it's fatalistic. It is rope determined, and nothing you can do can have any input into it. Or the other end of the spectrum; everything is just random chance and we're just at the will of random chance. And so this tension between real freedom and responsibility on the part of humans, and yet a sovereign God who is powerful enough to align us with his will and invite us into that, and for there to be kind of a beautiful dance that we get to participate in with God as history unfolds, yes, there is a tension in there intellectually, but I think it's a beautiful one. It's one of the reasons I'm thankful for the way Christianity talks about these two things. 

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Shawn Hart [00:14:46] I'm going to move to one of the text questions, it's right in line with what you spoke about. How will God judge people who do not believe in God, or never heard about Jesus, or cannot convert to Christianity because they will be persecuted or killed converting from Islam to Christianity? Will God judge you based on the information presented to you? 

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Vince Vitale [00:15:06] It's such a good question for so many reasons. First of all, because let's just recognize in the question itself is this wonderful instinct every single person is valuable. It's not okay for there to just be some people who are the preferred, and then some people that God isn't interested in. Well, let me ask the question. Where does that instinct come from? Just this general idea that there should be fairness, there should be morality, I think at the foundation of that is this idea that every single person is equally valuable in the world. I bet you most of us in this room would put our hands up and say, yes, I'm willing to agree about that. We agree about that. Every single person is equally valuable. But then that raises a really interesting question. Someone can only be equally valuable if there's something that's equally true about every single person in the world, in virtue of which they are all equally valuable. What is it? What is the thing that's equally true of every single person, in virtue of which every person can be equally valuable, in virtue of which we can ask this question and say, it can't be the case that God is just for some people and not interested in others. And these are sometimes some of the foundational questions that we don't ask that are actually assuming answers when we ask our very questions. And at least from my perspective as a Christian, the only answer I've really been able to come up with is the love of God. That every one of us is created in the image of God, and loved by God, and loved by God equally. Because if I try out any of the other answers, any of the answers that are just based on this naturalistic universe, it's not equally true. Some of us are more intelligent than others. Some of us are taller than others. Some of us are better at passing on our genes than others. Some of us are better in corporate business and making money than others. 

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[00:17:10] I mean, any natural quality you can think of, we are all going to be along a spectrum where we do not come out equal, but we have this deep, deep belief that no, we are all equally valuable and therefore there has to be something which is equally true of all of us. I think that the Christian God gives us an answer to that question, which we need for this question to make sense. And then to the question itself, I would just say it's a beautiful question because it is God's question, and in fact, it is God's objection which we see in him coming as the person of Jesus. It is why he came, because he was not content with just some people knowing about him, with just some people having an opportunity to respond to him. And when you look at Jesus' life in particular, these beautiful bookends of his life, at the very beginning of his life when he's first born, the first people that his birth is announced to are Magi from the East. In other words, foreigners who would have worshiped foreign gods who had no business knowing about him. And then at the very end of his life, the last thing that he commissioned his followers to do is to go and make disciples of all nations. He set up the church. This building exists. All the people who come here each week only exists because Jesus was not content with just some people having an opportunity to know him, and he set up the entire global church over the centuries to say, go and make disciples of all nations. And then when you look at Jesus's life within his life, it's just him continually reaching out to the marginalized, to those who weren't supposed to know, to those who were oppressed, to everyone who was on the fringes of society, and making sure that people had an opportunity to know who he is. So that is our commission. That is Jesus's objection. And he has given me and the rest of us in this room who believe in him, that responsibility to take his message as far as we can to reach as many as possible. 

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Shawn Hart [00:19:13] Yeah. And I think when we look at this question, I love it. It's really getting at the core of what you said about what's true. And I think when we look at what's true about people, is a really good thing to hone in on there. What's true about people? Well, there's a truth that Joe mentioned as well, that everyone has fallen short. We all fall short of our own standards, let alone God's. I continually can't meet my own standards. I set them up, and I show myself to be a failure and a hypocrite over and over again. What do I do with that? So sometimes in this question, what's baked into this question as well is, well, what about those who haven't heard? And will they end up with God? The difficult thing for that is if you wrestle with what's has been taught here tonight, is that we need someone to actually be a sacrifice for our sin, for what we've done wrong, our wrongdoing. Well, that's also something that's true about everyone around the globe. Everyone is in the same boat. We've all done wrong. And so I can't say that I need a savior dying on the cross to spill his blood for me. I can't say that I need that and then say the person on the other side of the world, because they're brought up in a different religious system, that they don't need it. Because they have the same problem. And as you look at all the different religions out there, there's one remedy, and it's found within Christianity. There's only one religion that offers God to people. In Buddhism, you don't get God. In Islam, you get to Paradise, but actually Allah is not there. Within Hinduism you don't get God. You actually become one with the deity Brahman. So you as you scale the landscape for someone that offers God, it is only Christianity. And so I love what-- I'm forgetting his name, but he wrote a book with John Lennox. He said, "How can you get mad about Christianity if it's the only one that offers God?". 

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[00:21:18] You can't get mad if it's the only one that offers God. It's like if I had a gift and I offered it to you and said, like, "Well, I don't really like that gift." Well, no one else is offering you a gift. No one is actually offering you a way to God. It's only within Christianity that we find a way to God. So when we look at how do we deal with this? As I look at the character of God and as I've gone throughout my story, I believe that God will reach anyone whose heart is truly set for them. And the Bible talks about those who seek me will find me. And I've seen that to be true over and over and over again. And I find it's not a God problem, it's a people problem. Is that people don't actually desire God. They desire to be God or make God in their image. I think if people are seeking him-- one of our good friends who passed away a few years ago, he wrote the book Seeking Allah Finding Jesus. He was truly seeking God. And you know who he found? Jesus. I met a Muslim. Some of you guys were at the sermon when I met the Muslim woman on the bus, and I asked her if this is true. That's why I love you are going up with truth. And the question specifically talks about persecution. She said, "My family would disown me if I become a Christian." And I was like, I have no idea what that could feel like. I have no idea. I can't say I understand because I don't. But I do have a question for you. If this is true, what do you do? And she said, "If this is true, I have no other choice but to embrace the truth of it, regardless of the consequences." And I so appreciated her response, and I still have no idea what it meant to live her life. And so there is a cost. And that's what Jesus tells us. So I love that. I love the heart for other people in this question. Jesus tells us there's a cost to following him. And for some people, the cost may seem greater. But there is a cost for all of us, and if we are not counting the cost, I think we need to do some introspection on our life. And I also love this question because it means you've understood the gravity of the invitation. 

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Rod [00:23:21] Hey, my name is Rod [sp]. I've been thinking about how to share Jesus with coworkers or friends, and I could use some help thinking about if they have a great life, if they don't know Jesus but they don't have a problem or see where they're falling short. What are some ways I could approach that? Making Jesus attractive to that person when they may not need him or think that they need him. 

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Jo Vitale [00:23:47] I love this question. I love that you're thinking it through because I think that's where a lot of people are. And and so it's good to bear in mind because that is the response that you'll often get. I also think it's not what people stay, but it's part of what I would say, is that the truth is there are times in life where things are great and it's just bounces off us. We think, I don't need anything. I'm satisfied. My life is good the way it is. [Inaudible] No one get through life without dying, first and foremost. But none of us get through life without suffering. It's going to come. And it's in those moments when you realize, like, pleasure won't hold me up. All of the things that I propped up in the place of God, all of the things I've looked to ultimately satisfy me, they actually can't because they're not the ultimate thing. How often we do that with human beings? But they can't do that for us either, can we? There's no human relationship. There's no thing, there's no goal. And I think it was Jim Carrey that said, "I wish everyone could get rich and famous and have every dream come true they ever wish for, just so they could realize that when you get that, actually, you still feel empty." It still doesn't solve it for you. This text called the Myth of Sisyphus, the idea that I feel like life ultimately is about like rolling up a boulder up a hill and you work super hard and you get it uphill for it to roll back down again, and then you roll it up again and then it comes back down again. I think that's ultimately what we find if you go long enough, that even the things you finding pleasure in, even the things that feel good day to day, ultimately it gets a little bit like that. And at some point you start to wonder, is that all there is? 

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[00:25:14] Someone that Vince met a while back and they had a conversation, he said, " The problem with life is that just when it seems like things resolved, the next thing comes." "The credits never roll," is what he said. Like there's no end. And so I would just say there's a sense in which sometimes people aren't great. If you think of sharing your faith as like sowing a seed, sometimes people aren't in a place where they're ready to receive that. But you can still saw those seeds, because there will come a time where people start to think about things, and then you may get a phone call, or then it may be that someone just remembers that conversation and some other things. I've had friends who I talked about Jesus with years ago, who I ran into like 15 years later at a wedding and saying, like, "Can we talk? I've been struggling with anxiety and I really want to talk to you." So things come back around is part of my answer. But I would also just say that even people who think, hey, life is so great, I don't need God, I would just say that the idea that God is just some crutch that you need to fill when things are bad, but once they're great you don't need him anymore, it's such a small view of God and it's such a small view of life, isn't it? C.S. Lewis, he said, our desires they're not actually too strong. They're too weak. God finds them too week. We're so easily satisfied. We spend our lives like making mud pies in the slum because we have no idea that there's a holiday at sea, is how he describes the difference being normal life and the Christian life. 

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[00:26:28] And there's a verse in the Bible that talks about don't get drunk on wine. Instead, be filled by the Holy Spirit. And, yeah, I find that an interesting verse. So I think, well, why is that? Because when you're drunk on wine, you think, hey, life is so great, so exuberant. What a high, what a rush! But then you come down. The point of being a Christian is you're filled with the Holy Spirit,. You are full of the Spirit of God. There is a power to that and a way of living life that is all the time. It's not just in these highs and lows, but when God comes and lives within you, he gives you a joy and a peace and a hope that even in the highs and lows, the good or bad things, it fills you up. And so if people say to me, "I don't need God, my life is satisfied," part of my response might be, aim higher. Actually, God has more for you. You have no idea what you were made for. There is a purpose on your life. You think this is the part? There is so much more for you. Don't settle for what you have. That is small dreaming when there is a God who has more for you. So I would just encourage[inaudible] have a bigger picture. If Christianity is true, if there is really a God and there is really eternal life, and you are really made for love by this God who wants to step into eternal relationship with you, that blows anything you could experience in his life out of the water. So don't aim low. 

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Vince Vitale [00:27:41] That's fantastic. [applause] And just very briefly, one way to frame a conversation which could be interesting, is that focus on happiness is actually a highly exclusive philosophy of life. Because there are tons of people around the world, there are tons of people in this city that their circumstances right now just don't allow for it. If that's the goal, if that's the core of what our life philosophy is going to be, it's highly exclusive. Whereas, from a Christian perspective, you're actually offering something that is available to every single person and they don't have to do anything to get it. They just have to be willing to receive it. And that's a much more inclusive way of thinking about what's significant in life. And even as a Christian, I just think you might be able to express this to a colleague at the right time. I'm so thankful that Jesus didn't have that philosophy of life, because he was perfectly happy on his heavenly throne in the context of the perfect union with Him and His Father and the Holy Spirit. And he actually had that deeper, that bigger vision for life that Jo's talking about, that actually there's something beyond just happiness. There are people that need me. There are people that need to be served. There are people that need me to actually make a sacrifice at times of my happiness so that I can love them in the deepest way possible. And that's the sort of vision of life that you want to be committed to. 

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Parker [00:29:07] Hi, my name is Parker. I'm 10. I have a question. So how does God use all these bad things in a good way? I don't get it. It's confusing. How does he do that? 

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Vince Vitale [00:29:21] That's the best question, Parker [sp]. Thank you. Part of the reason we hesitate and part of the reason it's so challenging is because we can't always see it, because we don't have the same view that God does. And sometimes we don't see it at all in this life, but sometimes we do. And so part of it is trusting in the goodness of God that if he is as good as he claims to be, as good as he is, that he would sacrifice his own life for us, then we can we can trust him that he can bring good things even out of the bad things. And then once in a while we do get to see it. I'll give you one example of that, and maybe you can then think of examples in your own life where this is true. At one point Jo was was pregnant, and then she actually lost the baby before the baby was born. And…

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Parker [00:30:17] I'm sorry. Me too, that happened to my family too.

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Vince Vitale [00:30:25] Yeah, thank… Oh wow, sorry. Thank you for sharing that. That was really difficult for us. And we struggled to to understand what place that could have in God's plan for our life. If he loved us, if he was good to us, if he cared about our family? And then in our case, (and this isn't always the case, but in our case) Jo got pregnant again not that long afterwards. And we had a son named Jonathan who's been running around this church over the last couple days. You may have seen him. And there was a point at which it just dawned on us, oh, wow, Jonathan literally couldn't have existed had we not lost the baby that was in Jo's womb. She would have still been pregnant with that child when she then got pregnant with Jonathan. And so now we have pictures behind our bed in our home of our two sons who are with us. And then a picture which symbolizes our daughter who's with us. And we genuinely believe that in the end, we're going to be together as a family of five, not a family of four. And there's going to be this beautiful relationship between Jonathan and Luca. Because Luca, in a sense, made this sacrifice not to be with us now so that Jonathan could come to exist and be part of our family, and we can be a family together in the context of all eternity. And so once in a while, you sort of do get this view and you go, oh, wow, that's a beautiful, grand plan for our family that's so far beyond what we could conceive of. But had we not realized that, what we experienced was just the grief of that loss initially. And yet even when we can't see at times what God is doing oftentimes, and if in particular we come to him and we just ask him, would you just show me that you're with me, even though I don't understand right now? He will show you in some sort of way. 

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[00:32:26] And in that instance, for us, this was one of the most incredible experiences of our lives. But we walked out of the doctor's office and we had just been told that Joe was going to lose the baby, lose Luca. We didn't feel like going home. We decided in the car we had thought about the name Luca. We thought we would give the name Luca. And we decided right at that time we said, yes, let's name the baby Luca. And we decided on that. And then Jo said, "I don't feel like going home. I don't feel like cooking. Can we just grab some food while we're out?" It was about dinner time. And I said, of course, just open up Yelp and just click on the top pizza place in this town and we'll go in and grab a pizza. So Jo opened up Yelp and put in pizza, and she hit number one and she did not look at what the restaurant was or what the name was. And then we drove about five minutes down the road in a town that we didn't know, and we turned into the parking lot and there was a big sign looking at us that said Luca Pizzeria. And I just can't chalk that up to coincidence or chance. And so this was well before we could see how God's plan was going to work out in a way that was good for us and our family. But he did give us the sign that he was with us in it. And that really is the whole story of Christianity, that even when we don't fully understand, we have a God who loved us so much that he didn't stay on his far off heavenly throne. He came and he suffered with us so that we could know we don't go through these things alone. I hope that helps a little bit. 

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Parker [00:33:55] Thank you. 

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Shawn Hart [00:33:57] Why would God create humankind knowing many would reject him and suffer eternally? How is that worth it to him? It seems selfish from a human perspective. 

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Vince Vitale [00:34:08] Yeah, it's sort of ties in with the question that we just heard about. And it is so difficult at times to understand in a full and comprehensive way when God's ways and his thoughts are so much higher than ours are. And yet there is this beauty in this courageous love of God being willing to create and to create beings that could hurt him, create beings that could grieve him, create beings that could turn away from him because he so desired and so hopes for and so reaches out in that longing that each one would turn to him. And it's interesting how sometimes we hold God to a sort of double standard. Sometimes we sort of hold him to a standard that we don't hold ourselves to, because there's a sense in which many of us who are parents in the room or maybe hope to be parents, had been involved in something similar. If you were to think it would be evil to create people into a world in which serious suffering would ultimately come, you have to impugn not only God, but anyone who has a human child. There's actually a strong analogy between human procreation and divine creation. Because when we choose to have a child, it is true that child could go through terrible suffering, that child could make terrible choices, that child could walk away from me and walk away from his family. And we tend to just focus on the hopeful and positive aspects of having a child, but there's a sober reality to that. And yet, I do believe that having a child can be a courageous, beautiful, vulnerable act of love if the parents are creating out of love for that child who is going to come into existence with a determination to be as closely alongside that child as they can possibly be on the way through, and to do anything that they can ultimately to walk that child through the pains of life. 

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[00:36:16] And when I look at the Christian God, that is exactly what I see. A God who formed every hair on our heads, who chose each person in this room individually. The Bible says, before the creation of the world. It says, why? Because you're referred to as his palm, as his masterpiece. It says he delights over you with a loud singing. It says that you're the apple of his eye. Those are all in the scriptures. And out of that love, he desire to create every single person. And then he walked as closely as you possibly could, the God of the universe come to live a human life. He didn't have to live and suffer a human death. He didn't have to suffer so that no matter what we go through, no matter what decision we make, he can always say that he's been there and he understands and we can understand him, and his invitation to us is always on offer. And then in the end, thankfully, he can offer so much more than a human parent can. If my child goes astray, there may be nothing that I can do, but God Himself can always be there, offering us an eternity where there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain. And in that same passage, it tells us why. And it says, because Jesus himself will be there. As Sean has said, Christianity is not just about getting to some Paradise with great theme park and great rides, but to be there with Jesus himself. And He says he will physically, literally be there and wipe away every one of our tears. So that's the hope that's on offer for every one of us, even as we go through the challenges of this life. 

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Jo Vitale [00:37:53] And I know I said earlier about that line, it's a beautiful story. I wish it were true. And I just recognize that in this room, there are going to be people in really different places. For some of you, maybe that's where you are at, that there are aspects of what I said tonight that sound really beautiful to you. But there are also parts you were like, man, I wish it was true, but I'm struggling. I still have questions. I'm wrestling. Some of this doesn't join out for me. I just want to encourage you, that's great. It's great that you have questions. It is great that you are engaging. I think sometimes you can feel like, will Christians welcome my questions? Is it okay for me to be struggling with doubt or will people be offended? We're not offended by your questions. In fact, God is not offended by your questions. Why? Because when you ask a question of somebody, that's actually how you get to know them. Isn't it? It's actually saying, I'm interested in you. I want to know about you. If God exists, if he's real, he's big enough to handle all of these questions. And I think it actually delights his heart that you would want to ask them. So I just want to encourage you don't shy away. Keep asking them. Find Christians in your life, people in this church or whoever brought you or anywhere else, but say, "Hey, can we go for coffee? I have more I want to talk about. I want to keep working through some of this stuff in conversation." And that would be a great route to take. 

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[00:39:05] I would also encourage you, you can you can bring the conversation to God as well. Before Vince became a Christian, when he was in college and he was working through wrestling with questions, and he had a lot of philosophical, argumentative, kind of arrogant questions on his bible, (I'm sure it was the good ones) he came to a place of saying, " I don't know if this is true." But he decided to pray, "Hey, God, I don't know if you're there, but if you are, I'm listening. Would you just show yourself to me?" And I think that's a prayer that God loves us as well. Who wouldn't want to answer that prayer? So I would just say, hey, that's okay to pray that. That's a safe prayer to pray. Why not just see? What's the risk in asking? I think God is a God who loves to answer our prayers. But there may also be some of you this evening who have just been listening, and you just know you're in a place you're like, that is a beautiful story, and I do think it's true. You may be some of you who've just been on a journey and you've been listening and something tonight just clicked and you're like, wow, if that is actually what God is like, he is not some judgmental, distant, far off God who's just [inaudible] like a textbook just rating my performance. But if he's a God who actually cares deeply about my suffering, if he's a God who sees me, if he's a God who cares about justice and is committed to it, but also is so for me that when I make my life a complete mess, he's there to pull me out and he says, "I'm not going to judge you for this. I'm going to rescue you. There's nothing more important to me than bringing you home." If that's what God is really like, then I would like to know him. 

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[00:40:45] Saint Augustine said, "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you." And I just wonder if there are some of us you just know you've been restless and you've been searching and you've been wondering where am I going to finally feel like some kind of satisfaction, or like something about my life makes sense, that there's some kind of meaning and purpose out of the constant anxiety and performance? If that's you tonight, I think people can spend their whole life searching for love like that, but I actually don't think you will find it anywhere else except in Jesus Christ and the love that God has for you. So if that's what you want, I just want to give you an opportunity. There's no pressure. You don't want to pray that, just sit silently for a moment. I totally respect that. But if you would like to pray, I said before there's a verse in Scripture that says, if we believe in him, to those who believe in him and receive him, God gives the right to become children of God. And that's actually what's on offer. Not just some like fuzzy feeling of love, an actual relationship with a real God who's personal and he's inviting you into his family. I want to make you part of my family. I want to call you my child. I want to love you like beyond what even the best parent could do. That's what's on offer him. And so to receive that, we have to do. We're just going to pray two simple things. Number one, we're going to say sorry because that's just a way of acknowledging I need you. And we're going to say thank you because that's just a way of saying I receive you.

Jo Vitale We’re so glad you joined us for Ask Away.

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Vince Vitale If you have a question that needs answering, we’d love to hear it.

Send us an email at askawayquestion@gmail.com or call and leave a voicemail at 321-213-9670.

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Jo Vitale Ask Away is hosted by Vince and Jo Vitale, and produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

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Vince Vitale New episodes come out regularly, so make sure to subscribe.

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Jo Vitale The best way you can support Ask Away is to leave a review. All you have to do is open up the podcast app on your phone, look for Ask Away, scroll down until you see “Write your review” and tell us what you think.

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Vince Vitale See you next time. And remember, if you have a question, it’s worth asking.

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