Jo Vitale [00:00:35] So welcome to the podcast where we invite you to Ask Away.

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[00:00:42] Hi everyone, welcome back to Ask Away. We're so glad that you can join us today. And that includes you too, Vince. It's been a really busy couple of weeks and Vince has been away on the road for some speaking events in Toronto, so kind of feel like I'm just catching up with you in the studio as well. Nice to see your face. Welcome home. 

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Vince Vitale [00:01:00] Two birds with one stone. 

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Jo Vitale [00:01:01] Yeah, exactly. Let's just get through some general admin while we're at it. But today we're going to be talking about the question, is it Christian to want to win? Is winning a Christian motivation? And that is a little bit of a different question from our usual fair, that it's one that has a great deal of bearing on how we live our lives and even what the purposes of a life should be about. So, we hope that it will give you something to mull over as you take a step back today and just consider your own approach to life, are you in it to win it? What is your motivation as you walk out of the door or head to work, either literally or virtually in the mornings? And Vince in particular, he's been engaging with this question in some more depth recently, and he's been asked to speak to it in a few different contexts, but specifically in the arena of the marketplace and speaking to business leadership. So, I kind of wanted to pick his brains about it today through some of the questions that I'm actually going to put to him in this episode. 

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[00:01:56] But it's also getting closer and closer to home for us as well, because we've suddenly reached this stage where our boys are three and five years old, and it feels like we've just transitioned into this decision-making season of parenting. Before this point, we just had to do the basics. We just had to keep them alive. Feed them, clothe them, change their diapers, put them to bed, give them a lot of hugs, tell them we love them. All of these things that you just kind of naturally do. But now all of a sudden, we have a lot of decisions that we're realizing we have to start making, like about school, what do we do for kindergarten? Do we do public school, Christian school, homeschool, hybrid school? How far should we drive for school? Just all these different interesting parenting questions. 

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Vince Vitale [00:02:36] Yeah. What are we going to do? 

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Jo Vitale [00:02:39] No. 

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Vince Vitale [00:02:40] Okay. We'll talk about that later okay. All right. 

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Jo Vitale [00:02:42] Yeah, let's just pause that conversation. Just push that one off further. But, yeah, just a lot of interesting live questions coming up for us at the moment. And we're seeing this in another arena as well. So, our three-year-old JJ, he just started playing soccer. And at that age it's kind of hysterical because they can hardly kick the ball at all. But he's still like so in it. He's so in the zone that when we're leaving the house for practice as we're driving, what he's saying in the car on the way is "We're going to win. We're going to beat them." And we're kind of thinking like, wow, where is this language coming from? And is that a good thing? 

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Vince Vitale [00:03:16] Yeah. I mean, until the last few weeks, I hadn't even thought about that phraseology, like, to beat them, to beat other people. It's kind of concerning. Is that really the phraseology that I want to motivate our sons endeavors in life? And so, yes, I've been deep in thought, thinking about motivations and what has motivated me in life and where that came from and how I want to motivate my children. And I'm proud of you, Jo, for saying soccer. 

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Jo Vitale [00:03:44] You're welcome. Yeah, I'm trying to be culturally appropriate. Sorry to everyone in England who's listening. That was a bit of a sellout there, but alright, let's get into it. So, the way I think that we instinctively approach this question of winning in life and what motivates us, it has so much to do-- you just mentioned Vince-- with our own upbringings and what we ourselves were raised to value from a young age. It's why this question suddenly seems so important to us, even though our kids are only three, because the lessons they learn now they're going to carry with them into life. And so, Vince, this feels like a little bit of a first date question for you. So, it just cost you [inaudible] to that amazing occasion. But I wanted to put it to you, first of all, like, where did you come from? And what were the cool values that you inherited from your family in this area? 

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Vince Vitale [00:04:33] Well, as you know, far too well, I'm an Italian-American from new Jersey and you know some of my family background. Of course, Jo, you know my parents weren't really afforded the opportunity to go to college, but they were very hard workers. And so, I guess I would say probably the highest value in my household growing up was hard work. My dad actually had this mantra in my childhood: 100%. And whenever I heard it-- like, he would yell this from the side of a soccer field or basketball game, and all he had to do was say that one phrase and I would kick into gear, especially in sports, give it absolutely everything I had. To the point that to this day, kids from my childhood who I haven't seen or spoken to in years or decades will write 100% on my social media pages on my birthday because they still have this vivid memory of my dad saying it from the sidelines in all these different sports. 

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Jo Vitale [00:05:34] Yeah, I remember being super challenged when you told me about that early on when we were dating, because I realized I'm like a solid 75% sort of person. I don't know if I'm going to be able to match this level of intensity and commitment. 

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Vince Vitale [00:05:48] And I don't think that's true. And you do it very, very gracefully. 

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Jo Vitale [00:05:52] Thank you. Yeah, I can make 75% look graceful. So, let's draw that out a little bit more. So, how did this background that was instilled in you from early in your childhood influence your approach to life and in particular the way that you were motivated for life moving forward from there? 

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Vince Vitale [00:06:12] Yeah, and it's certainly complex even trying to get yourself back into certain mindsets. I've found it quite difficult. And certainly, I was impacted in a whole variety of ways, both good and bad. But yeah, I would say that one major theme that sticks out is that competitive sports were extremely formative in my life. Life was about being the best, being better than other people, beating others. Life was about amassing trophies, winning at all costs. The famous Vince Lombardi quote pretty well sums up the philosophy of life that I had adopted. Winning isn't everything but wanting to win is. 

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Jo Vitale [00:06:49] Vince who? 

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Vince Vitale [00:06:51] Vince Lombardi. 

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Jo Vitale [00:06:53] [Inaudible] someone I'm supposed to know.

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Vince Vitale [00:06:55] We'll pause that for now. Just distant, distant cousin of mine. Just leave it at that. But it wasn't until really much later, after I came to Christ, that I began to realize at the root of this win at all costs approach to life is sort of a preferencing of oneself over others. I need to do better than the next guy. I need to win and he needs to lose. I need to have the most trophies. I wanted to be the one celebrating in jubilation at the end of a state championship game. And the devastation that the other team would feel in that same moment, furthest thing from my mind, wouldn't even have crossed my mind. 

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Jo Vitale [00:07:32] Yeah. And so, how would you say this philosophy of life served you? How was it playing out for you? 

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Vince Vitale [00:07:39] Well, in one sense, really well. Like, from a worldly sense, really well. The thing about this philosophy of life is that it does set you up to wind up with success, at least as the world sees success. And it sets you up to be a leader, to work harder and better than the people around you, and therefore to maybe be more likely to wind up at or near the top of power structures. And so, I did quite a bit of winning in various aspects of life, school, sports, etc., and I got continual praise for it, which I think then reinforce the mindset even further. But it slowly over time began to become clear to me that even though this winning is everything attitude gave me success in some respects, it was not forming me in a way that would make me a good friend or a good leader. 

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[00:08:32] There were already some moments, even before I came to Christ, where I was able to kind of see a glimpse of that for a second and then sort of lost track of it. But my focus was always on me. And if you draw out the trajectory of the winning is everything mindset and heart attitude, that can lead to some places you really don't want to wind up. That intense focus on the self, and my accomplishments, and my achievements can very naturally lead to selfishness and pride and narcissism. And not the qualities of a good person or a good leader, in fact, the opposite of those qualities. 

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Jo Vitale [00:09:07] Yeah. So, when was it then, if you were kind of on this trajectory, that it was first a really challenge for you? 

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Vince Vitale [00:09:17] The most vivid moment that comes to mind is when in my freshman year of college, I was first invited to a Christian gathering by two teammates of mine, two soccer teammates of mine. The meeting was of Athletes in Action, campus ministry on Princeton's campus. And I didn't even know what that meant. I just knew it had athlete in the title and my teammates were inviting me. But there was this really vivid experience where I remember we were a few minutes late. We walked into Murray Dodge Hall and this small room, maybe 60 or so students, there was already some singing, some worship that was taking place. And I remember walking in the back of the room and just seeing the students singing their hearts out to this invisible God. And it was like in the moment, I just was very disoriented. I didn't know what to make of it. 

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[00:10:10] And then beginning to listen to the lyrics, they were praising this God for being so great, in fact, for being so much greater than them, so much greater than they could ever be. And I think I found that experience of observing people praising someone else for just how exalted he is compared to them, very disorienting. The fact that someone was far better than them was producing the purest, most gratitude-soaked joy that I had ever seen on their faces. When in my mind, when somebody was better than you that was supposed to produce resentment, bitterness and anger that would motivate you to get back on top. So, I mean, in my story, that's the moment where I would say I just felt this real confusion and disorientation about whether that trajectory of life that I previously had been on was right. 

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Jo Vitale [00:11:08] That must have been so shocking for you to suddenly have this revelation of, oh, I thought my life was about me being the best, not somebody else. But I'm very glad you had that moment. I'm not sure how well I would have got on with Uber competitive Vince pre that realization. 

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Vince Vitale [00:11:26] No, it would have been a train wreck. In all honesty, I'm so thankful for that. Approaching marriage with the win at all cost competitive mindset that I once had would have been a train wreck. I'm so thankful for that, because then you are deeply ingrained to compete with everyone around you, and there's no one who's around you more than your spouse. And that would just set you up for a terrible situation. 

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Jo Vitale [00:11:52] Yeah, it would not be a good time. So, what would you say then in light of that moment? What changed about your understanding of life? 

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Vince Vitale [00:12:02] Yeah, it has in some ways often been slow and gradual, but I would say a complete reversal. My mind goes to, Philippians 2 in this famous passage where it says do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of the others. Whereas, before Christ was in my life, I feel like I did just about everything out of selfish ambition and I clearly valued myself over others and look to my interests in a way that blinded me to the interests and needs and hurts of others around me. And so, success in life, as communicated and represented in the life of Jesus in a substantial way, is actually the opposite of what was ingrained in me and what I had embraced. A Christ-like life, I would say, is all about putting others before yourself, just as Jesus did for us. 

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Jo Vitale [00:13:13] Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because it makes me think a lot about the way my parents raised me as well. And, of course, we weren't a perfect family, but one of the things I'm super grateful for was seeing that the model of service that my parents lived out. Particularly as my dad being a pastor, and that can go different ways. That could be certain forms of leadership and spiritual leadership that can actually look really unattractive when it becomes self-centered. But I really saw in the way that they lived and loved and served their congregations. This lived before me in a way that I didn't know the lesson I was learning, but I think I just saw it with my own eyes in a way that went deep in me from a young age. Of course, that's what life is about, putting others before yourself. And it's one of the things we're trying to instill in our kids now whenever we hear the words, "Me first!" No, our family motto is you first, not me first. But that one is a work in process for sure. 

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[00:14:09] But the flip of that, I guess, is-- to push back a little bit here, couldn't somebody say, well, yeah, that's all well and good, but doesn't the Bible also tell us to strive to win? What is the place within this framework of serving others but also hard work and having some kind of ambition. And I'm wanting to perform excellently. I think about it a verse like 1 Corinthians 9 verse 24, "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore, I do not run like someone running aimlessly. I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and I make it my slave, so that after I've preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." So, what do you do with the text like that, I Corinthians 9: 24-27, in light of what you're saying about not making it your goal to win? 

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Vince Vitale [00:15:13] I absolutely I love this passage. It was one of the first passages that really connected with me in a really deep and passionate way, and fired me up when I first had come to Christ. And I was in a sporting context, playing soccer pretty much seven days a week on a team that took that really seriously. And this was kind of a way that I felt like I could connect in with the Christian faith and be like, oh, okay, this doesn't mean that I need to just be unmotivated about things. In fact, I'm supposed to push hard. All this training I've been doing in the sporting context, it is relevant to the Christian life. And I totally agree with that. The first thing to recognize in this passage is that it is an analogy. Paul's making an analogy between running a race and living the Christian life. And the thing about an analogy is that by definition, it breaks down at some point. There might be a lot of good in it. But if it was a one-to-one correlation on every point, then it wouldn't be an analogy of something, but it would be that very thing. 

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[00:16:13] So, by definition, we can't just jump from this passage speaking about, for example, one winner, one person wins the race to concluding that we should be motivated to beat other people in a competitive sense and come out as that one winner. And the context of this passage is, I think, really helpful. So just before that portion of the chapter in verse 22, it says, "I have become all things to all people, so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." Or in other translations, "That I may become a fellow partaker of it." And so, the immediate context makes clear that this passage is not about winning in the sense of beating out other people, but actually quite the opposite. The goal is to share the prize with others, to be a fellow partaker of it with others. And what is the prize? Well, that word prize is used one other time in the New Testament, in Philippians 3, where it says, "I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.". 

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[00:17:30] So the prize is heaven or eternal life. And so, this is where the analogy breaks down somewhat. Yes, we are called to run the race of faith like that one runner in a race who wins the prize. But the prize to which we are called is not exclusive to one winner. It's a prize that is on offer to everyone. And we are actually called not to win it at the expense of others, but to spur others on, to run with us and to win it with us. And likewise, the passage talks about an imperishable crown, a crown of righteousness. And, likewise, Jesus talks regularly about being motivated by rewards. We see that throughout Jesus's teaching. But again, I would say the distinction between a biblical reward and winning in a worldly, competitive sense is that only one person wins in a competition, but everyone is invited to pursue eternal rewards, and we are actually commanded to help others to get to them rather than pushing them down. 

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Jo Vitale [00:18:35] Yeah, I really like that. It reminds me of a verse in Romans 12: 10 where it talks about-- there's a sense of competition to it, but what it says is outdo one another in showing honor. So, it's like, yes, outdo one another, but in honoring one another, not in beating each other down. Not in coming out first, but actually in lifting the other up. Which I think is along the lines of what you're talking about. And then also Hebrews 12 is an interesting one as well, isn't it? Because it talks about we're called to run the race, but then it says the way you run the race is by fixing your eyes on Jesus who's ahead of you. And why did he run the race? We're told in that verse because of the joy set before him. 

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[00:19:12] So, we think about the joy set before him as his rewards and his motivation for running and winning and being the victor over all of our sin and over everything. But the joy set before him was us. We were the reward. The one thing he gets out of the cross that he didn't already have before it. And so, that helps me to frame, I think, the sense of what a reward is. It's in those relational terms of eternal life. Absolutely, that is the prize. But we're told in Scripture, eternal life is to know God the Father in Jesus Christ, whom he sent. So, ultimately, the great reward that you're running for is the same one Jesus ran for. He ran for us, for the joy of us, and we're running for the joy of him. 

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Vince Vitale [00:19:50] Yeah, well said. 

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Jo Vitale [00:19:51] So, yeah, that connects with me. Okay, so I just want to switch gears a little bit here. Because when you're kind of younger, we talked about early on in life, you start out and the areas of competition are often in things like academics or sports or areas of performance, almost more extracurricular in a sense. But as you get older, I think most of the ways in which we think about winning in our day to day lives, particularly as working adults, is in the context of the marketplace. And there's a sense in which we all feel like, well, success in life means kind of climbing the ladder, getting to the top of the pyramid, working so hard that you perform well, that you outdo one another, people. When you're competing for different positions at work so that you can keep going up. 

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[00:20:35] And so, I guess, my question would be, if you're saying actually the point is not to outperform other people, how do we take this and practically relate it to how we live our lives in the marketplace? And particularly for those who are trying to do well at their jobs and who are aiming for that promotion and want to keep moving up. Are we saying that's wrong, that we should always cede leadership positions to other people? Are we supposed to do the opposite instead of the climbing the ladder? We should always take the lowest rung and just be happy with it? Should we intentionally bum at work just so other people get promoted? I mean, how do you live this out in the world that we're in, where everything is based on this sense of rising to the top and gaining power and having these goals of success as the world defines it. 

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Vince Vitale [00:21:23] Yeah, that's really helpful. And I definitely think Christians should be leaders. I hope they will be. But my understanding of good leadership has certainly been turned upside down by being brought into the Christian life. I always, in a sense, wanted to be a leader, and that used to mean I want it to be higher up than other people. But Jesus led for sure, but through lowering himself. I mean he did come to lead, but he also came not to be served, but to serve. And interestingly, the actual word leader points to this vision of leadership. Definitionally, it's not possible to be a leader unless there are people you are leading. You cannot be a leader on your own. When we call someone a leader, we actually define that person in relation to others. So quite to the contrary of being a leader, by winning out over others or being in power over others, it is only those who follow who actually have the power to make a leader a leader. 

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[00:22:25] And I think this is so different from how I used to think about leadership, and from how we often speak about leaders. We laud leaders for being self-made, self-reliant, self-assured. But leadership is actually, by definition, other-aligned, other-centered, and powered by others, not self-centered, and therefore is rightly conceived of as an act of service as Jesus conceived of it and lived it. But in my life, at least, there was what I would call a leadership inconsistency. There was this big inconsistency between the people who I would identify as great leaders, and then the method by which I was striving to become a leader. If you asked me who I considered to be great leaders or people I considered to have lived great lives, I bet I would have listed a bunch of people whose lives were characterized by loving, selfless, sacrificial service of others. But then, if I was honest about how I thought I would achieve leadership-- I don't think I would have been honest about that. 

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[00:23:31] But if I was honest about that, it was not by serving others, but by being better than others, by winning out over others. And I think this inconsistency is true for many of us at different times in our lives. If we ask which leaders have lived the greatest lives, we name people who sacrificially served others. But then the way we spend our days is trying to beat others and climb the ladder and get on top, making sure we win and they lose. And I'm sure if you asked me, I would have always said I wanted to live a life of great service. But the way you live your days is, of course, the way you live your life. I love that quote from Annie Dillard. It's not possible to have beating other people as your consistent daily focus, and then to just somehow wind up living a life of great service. And in my life, this inconsistency was a serious problem. The inconsistency between the leadership that I valued theoretically, but then the leadership I was actually trying to live. 

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Jo Vitale [00:24:31] Yeah. That's good. Can you say a little bit more about how this can be a serious problem? Because I'm sure that all of us can relate to this. That both in various ways, we've all at one time or another, been impacted by harmful models of leadership, or we ourselves have experienced leading other people poorly and seeing the negative impact that that has had on them. And so, I know that you've been thinking of speaking a lot specifically about the dangers of leadership recently. So, can you share with us just a bit about what has been most impactful for you as you've reflected on this and studied it? 

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Vince Vitale [00:25:06] Sure. If I had to sum it up in one line, I'd say the worst thing for leadership is leadership. 

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Jo Vitale [00:25:14] You're right. 

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Vince Vitale [00:25:15] Which sounds really counterintuitive. I'll try to explain what I mean by that. There's a flurry of research at the moment that I've been diving into on the impact of power or leadership or influence on character. And the findings are quite astounding. Behavioral studies show that people in positions of power start to talk differently, eat differently, even drive differently. They do these studies at pedestrian crossings. And when someone is clearly standing there looking to enter the crossing, fancy cars or expensive cars are about twice as likely to blow right through and not stop as cheaper cars. 

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Jo Vitale [00:25:52] Wow! 

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Vince Vitale [00:25:53] Because my meeting is clearly more important than that guy’s meeting. And then there are these very intriguing brain imaging studies. So, whenever we watch someone perform an action, the part of our brain that we would use to do that same action lights up in a sort of sympathetic response. It's called mirroring. It's the basis for empathy. It helps us to feel something of what the other person is feeling, and to be able to see something from another person's perspective. Well, the brain imaging studies show that for people in positions of serious power or authority, the mirroring effect in the brain actually gets significantly diminished over time. And so, The Atlantic published an article in 2017 based on some of these findings, some of this research titled, Power Causes Brain Damage. And one of the leading experts at Berkeley, Doctor Keltner, has been quoted as saying, "People with power tend to behave like patients who have damaged their brains orbital frontal lobes. The experience of power might be thought of as having someone open up your skull and take out that part of your brain so critical to empathy and socially appropriate behavior." 

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[00:27:13] And so, counterintuitively, there is this paradox of leadership where one of the potentially worst things for leadership is actually leadership. And this conclusion hit me like a ton of bricks because I tend to think the exact opposite. In most things, more experience means you tend to get better. The more I shoot a basketball, the better I am at it. The more I hit a golf ball, the better I am at it. More experience is supposed to translate into better. So, I tend to think the same with leadership. Leadership experience is just sort of naturally going to translate into me being a better leader. But then when I dove into the research, it actually suggests otherwise. Leadership experience does not just naturally translate into leadership excellence. And this recent research is actually confirming for us something that the Bible has already warned us about for millennia. 

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[00:28:15] I just finished studying the book of 2nd Chronicles, the records of the kings of Israel and Judah. These high-level leaders in positions of serious power. And the Bible gives incredible insight into the human condition and the psychology of leadership and power. Time and time again, as you read through this book, these kings begin by serving the Lord faithfully and wholeheartedly for years, sometimes decades. And then the text will say something, like, until he became powerful. Until he was established and became strong. Until the people begin to come and pay homage and the king listened to them. Believed his own press. 

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[00:29:06] And from a practical perspective, this has been one of the most helpful things for me personally, because exactly the way the enemy will want to deceive us is by making us think the leaders are just floating in a river that will just naturally lead to maturity and excellence, when it's actually one that naturally, in just a worldly sense, leads to destruction. But if we're aware of the dangers of power, then we can trust the Holy Spirit to supernaturally give us everything we need to guard against these dangers, and to come alongside, and discern all that's necessary to support healthy leadership in the context of the communities that we live in. 

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Jo Vitale [00:29:48] Listening to this, I've heard you say these statistics before, but they still shock me and I find them really, really sobering. Honestly, it instills in me the sense of fear and trembling because I think it's easy to hear that and think, well, that's just for super powerful people. That's just like for the CEOs of major companies, but the rest of us we're nowhere near that kind of danger. But even in the last few years, we had time out, right? We had like a sabbatical for like a year of a lot of processing and assessing where are we at in life? How are we doing? And one of the things that, even just looking at my own life I actually found really shocking was, I realized looking at the trajectory that when I first started out, even in ministry, even doing evangelism, I feel like I used to spend so much time asking other people questions. I feel like in conversation I was really other-focused. 

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[00:30:36] I remember that quote from Francis Schaeffer where he would always say, like, if you have an hour with someone, spend 55 minutes listening and asking them questions, then only speak for five minutes. The end. I always thought, that is such a great model for engaging. But I realized as time went on, that actually you'd expect as an evangelist you get better at conversation and better at asking questions, but I realized that in my life I was seeing a trajectory of getting worse. Like as I did it more and more, and perhaps I learned more and knew more and had a feeling like, oh, I know how to talk to people now; I would ask less questions and I would talk way more percentage of time in conversations. And I realized after a while, I'm not as good at asking questions as I used to be. And I found that really disturbing because I drifted into that and I hadn't noticed until I actually had some real time out to reflect on, well, how am I doing in these areas? And realize, oh, like, this is really problematic. 

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[00:31:27] And I feel like we see that all the time, right? That the more people are in leadership positions, the more they talk and the less questions they ask. We hung out with someone a couple of months ago who was so refreshing to be around, and someone who's been really successful in his profession. And afterwards, I remember the two of us walk away and being, like, why was that so life-giving and refreshing? I think it's because we realize walking out of the conversation that despite this person having every reason to be the one dominating conversation in terms of worldly prestige, he just was so good at asking questions and is so humble and so other-focused. 

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[00:32:01] And it really challenged me. So, yeah, I'm seeing these statistics. I'm thinking, this is for all of us. This isn't just for the people we consider the one-percenters in the world who have it all, but all of us get on this trajectory. And I think it's a good thing for us all to have to think through, like, what are the ways that I veered into dangerous habits or patterns that I haven't even noticed that I'm not listing well anymore? I'm not mirroring well. I've become less sympathetic. I've become more entitled. It really is a reality check to kind of sit down and do some soul searching before God and ask those questions. 

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Vince Vitale [00:32:33] I totally agree, and I think it can happen so gradually that you don't even notice it as this kind of trajectory is taking place. And then eventually, the people around you do, but at that point you're kind of already in positions of greater leadership, greater power, and people are that much more hesitant to say anything. And then it goes further and further. And now you really can't say anything, because now in order to say something, I'd have to tell you, "Hey, you used to be here, but now you're way over here." We're not just talking about kind of a 1% correction on the trajectory, but we're talking about a big jump. So, we just have to be, I think, in the habit of both asking people where they see that in our lives and really having relationships and seeking out relationships with people that will tell us the truth about that, and then also having the courage to speak that into other people's lives when we see it as well. Because it's just so significant and that trajectory can just go so, so gradually and then all of a sudden, we wind up in a place that we don't want to be at all. 

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Jo Vitale [00:33:35] That's really good, because I think we can be scared of saying things, especially if they seem like small things at the time. Because we're like, I don't want to be the nagging, picky person who's just picking at other people with little things. But the little things become big. Those little things [inaudible] if we don't catch them. So that's a good encouragement to actually speak out. You're actually loving someone when you do that, which I think took me a long time to learn. And I think reflecting on these dangers of leadership, it all sounds good in theory, right? But not if we're mindful of the danger of leadership. Then what does this practically look like in terms of real life? Because I'll be honest, I hear that and it makes me just want to run away. 

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[00:34:10] It just makes you think, well, then I don't want to have any power at all. I don't want to be in leadership at all. If the dangers are that severe, if I'm going to insidiously creep towards having these massive character flaws, isn't it better just to totally run the other way? But we're also saying that as Christians, we are called to be involved in the world and to serve excellently and to step into good forms of leadership. So how do you guard, and not just in theory, but how do you actually adopt this attitude in a way that changes the way you live and think and act in your everyday? Pragmatically, what do you do with this? 

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Vince Vitale [00:34:47] I think one of the good things is that it does force us into a place when we understand this, where we have to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit and not on our own. Because you do some of this reading, you do some of the research and you realize, yeah, I'm in really big trouble if this is up to me. But if God has called us to something, then he won't call you to something if he's not also going to empower you for that. And Holy Spirit raising Jesus from the dead certainly has the power to be able to guard us against the things we needed to be guarded against in the context of healthy community, as we live out whatever it is that God has called us to. But we also need to have the courage to take a deep look at just how deeply ingrained some of these self-focused instincts can be in our life. I've been doing that even just over the last few weeks, and it's amazing. 

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[00:35:44] If you do that prayerfully, God will reveal to you not in a condemning way, but in a in a convicting way that hopefully eventually leads to freedom, that some of these biases of self over other can be really deep. And it's painful to realize that, but it's really good for us as well. And so, most recent example in my life, having done some travel recently, seats on an airplane. Every time I fly on a plane, I would rather I get the window seat than someone else get it. I will do just about anything to avoid the middle seat, and it's amazing. I mean, I've taken how many flights in my life? Never thought there was anything weird about that at all until all of a sudden, I'm thinking, but someone needs to sit in the middle seat. Why shouldn't it be me? Deep down, do I really value others as much as I value myself? 

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[00:36:47] Do I really feel like I have the right to the window seat because maybe I'm more technologically savvy, and have my notifications set up so that I can, as a frequent flier, get on the app real quick and choose my seat the moment that it's available to be chosen. So that then the person who maybe isn't afforded to travel as frequently and isn't as tech savvy winds up in the middle seat rather than me? It's really challenging. So, I'm thinking about whether I need to choose the middle seat in the future on purpose, just as a way of very tangibly, concretely, practically valuing others interests above my own. But I really don't want to. It is deeply ingrained. 

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Jo Vitale [00:37:38] Yeah, that's a hard one; isn't it? No more personal space? It's the choice you're making there. 

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Vince Vitale [00:37:44] As a British person, I know that's even harder. 

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Jo Vitale [00:37:46] Yeah. I'm just like, oh, God, that's hard. That's really hard. 

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Vince Vitale [00:37:51] I think there are two things I love about the Christian faith, though, because so often we want to change the world. We want to do amazing things. Who was it who said everybody wants to change the world; nobody wants to do the dishes? 

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Jo Vitale [00:38:04] Yeah. 

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Vince Vitale [00:38:04] But you can do something beautiful and worshipful for the Lord and for another person and not seek any of your own glory for it or any of your own credit for it. Maybe it's just this guy's got the window seat instead of the middle seat because I chose the middle seat. So, it'd be a little bit nicer for him to have the window seat. It could be a real act of worship, and maybe that pleases the Lord. 

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Jo Vitale [00:38:28] Yeah. Just imagine living a life that was just buildup of beautiful small acts like that, that become this gorgeous, big, beautiful picture of a life lived under God. Yeah, that's actually a really beautiful way to live. So, if you began with saying that the most important quality in life was winning, what would you say that it is now? 

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Vince Vitale [00:38:49] If I had to sum it up, in a word, best choice might be humility. You spoke about it earlier, Jo. I think that's one of the most important qualities of a good person and a good leader. I also think it's a word that tends to be misunderstood. Jesus himself is referred to in the scriptures as humble. So, humility cannot be a matter of just thinking badly about oneself, which is sometimes the way people conceive of it, just being really self-deprecating or down on oneself. I like what C.S. Lewis said, humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. And it's not just thinking of yourself less, but thinking of others more. Valuing others above yourself. And in my experience, truly humble people regularly say four sentences. I've been trying to make a sort of list of the sentences that humble people seem to say. And the list that I have right now is, I don't know. I was wrong. I need help. And will you forgive me? 

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Jo Vitale [00:39:50] That's good. 

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Vince Vitale [00:39:51] And these are four sentences that I would never say when my life philosophy was all about winning. These are things losers say. Winners always know they're never wrong. They never need help. And these are also not the sentences we typically associate with the leaders in leadership. Because leaders are not supposed to show vulnerability or weakness, or so we're told. And so, leaders tend to say these four sentences less and less over time. If we're not careful, or even not at all. But the reality is that these four sentences are true for every single finite, fallible human person quite regularly. That I don't know things, that I am wrong about, things that I need help and that I need forgiveness. 

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[00:40:37] And so, if we're not affirming these four truths with regularity, that's a sign either of self-deception or of dishonesty. The truly, I believe, strong and healthy leader embraces these realities, embraces that in light of them, he or she needs the support of others. And I think it's that attitude, in my experience, that truly builds trust and safety and genuine relationship. True success in life. So, I've been trying to use those four sentences as a sort of barometer in my own life of whether I'm living and leading from a place of, humility. And I guess you, Jo, can tell me how I'm doing. 

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Jo Vitale [00:41:17] Glad to. 

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Vince Vitale [00:41:18] Maybe not right now.

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Jo Vitale [00:41:22] A 360 review in our household. 

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Vince Vitale [00:41:24] On air. 

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[00:41:26] Yeah, that's next episode. Tune in. But no, I think that's powerful, though, because I think I've said it before. When I think about my dad, who's also my pastor, so he was both like the leader in our home but also like a spiritual leader for me as well, he so modeled humility in the way that he would ask for forgiveness from his children, even when 99% of the wrong done began with us. But he would always own his 1% and do it fully. And the fact that he would come and be the one to apologize, it was so powerful. And it didn't undermine him as a leader. But actually, I never respected him more as a man and as a leader than in those moments. And I also never believed the gospel more than in those moments. The power of that in his life to see, wow, you don't just espouse these words from your mouth, but you really live them and believe them in your heart. And it is it's so beautiful to see that kind of leadership. 

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[00:42:23] But just to close with one question, because when I think about this and I so agree what you say about humility, but I just wonder what's the impact on you as a person? And do you think that it leads to us then sort of becoming lazy or never striving for excellence in life? Does this lead you towards a 75% rather than a 100% life? And that matters to me because when I think about who you are as a person, I have this vivid memory in my mind. I think it was early in our marriage, we were at the beach, and everyone else got way tired of playing all the games we were playing at the beach, and they're just going to lie down or have a drink or nap or something. But Vince was still going. And so, he had a Frisbee and it was a windy day. And so, he just started flinging the Frisbee into the wind and then trying to catch it. And it kept going in all these different directions. But Vince was absolutely determined that he was going to keep going, throwing the Frisbee into the wind until he calculated the precise angle at which it would come back to him directly. 

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[00:43:15] And I'm not kidding. He must have spent over an hour just throwing and throwing, throwing the frisbee into the wind. And I remember looking at that and just smiling to myself. Because I was, like, this is like the perfect metaphor for the man that I have married. He just 100% doesn't quit, just persevering, keeping going until he gets it right. We were joking the other day that that should be the name of your autobiography, Frisbee into the Wind- would be the name of the book. But that's so what comes to mind when I think about you. But then I think, well, if we're saying don't win, don't strive; what does that lead to in terms of the way you live life? Do you just need to chill out and just lie on the beach a bit more? Like, what do you do with that? 

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Vince Vitale [00:43:59] Yeah, you put a pretty charitable interpretation on that. I think I would have been a little more concerned. How come nobody wants to play with Vince and he has to play Frisbee by himself? 

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Jo Vitale [00:44:08] Well, I was exhausted. I put in 75% and I was done. 

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Vince Vitale [00:44:14] Yeah. I actually think that that 100% moto from my dad was a great thing, especially when brought within, ultimately, a Christian framework. I remember when I came to Christ freshman year in college, reading for the first time Colossians 3:23, "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord." And I was like, "Dad, look! Dad, it's what you've been saying all along, all these years. It's right here in the Bible." But the "as working for the Lord" is very important. Not as working for oneself. Now, my effort was transformed from an expression of having to work hard in order to achieve things, and my worth and my value, to now wanting to work hard out of gratitude for what I had already received. And I stopped working for love and started working from love. And that was a remarkable change and incredibly freeing. And I would say I've never worked harder or more joyfully than when I am working as an expression of gratitude and worship to the God who has given me so much. 

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[00:45:33] And now I see value and hard work in all things, because my father is always watching, and therefore I can always glorify him with my work. Whereas, previously, when it was about my glory and my achievements, there really wasn't any point or motivation to work if others weren't watching, or if I wasn't going to get the credit, or get a trophy for it. But my father sees and rewards even what is done in secret. And yet now I can rest. I can enjoy a lion on the beach and maybe away. I couldn't, you know, previously, and just be rested and peaceful in the presence of the Lord and experience that as a gift from God, knowing that my value doesn't depend on being the best. There's only one best, God himself, and he has no competition. I can rest knowing that the most important things about who I am are not anything I need to achieve, but things that God has already achieved. He is the one who wins. And what a privilege we have just to be invited to spend eternity celebrating his victory. 

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Jo Vitale [00:46:37] Yeah, I love how you finished that for us, Vince. Because it reminds me of the first time I ever had the chance to pray with someone to become a Christian on a university campus, on one of our outreach missions, and it was with this exchange student from China called Grace. Amazingly, actually. 

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Vince Vitale [00:46:53] I remember her. 

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Jo Vitale [00:46:54] But I remember it had nothing to do with the persuasiveness or eloquence of my evangelism. But as I got talking to her, I realized I'd stumbled across her on campus. She picked up a flier, but actually, she had already been reading the Bible for a long time, and she'd been observing other Christians in her time in England. And right before she asked if I would pray with her for her to become a Christian-- I didn't even offer it, she beat me to it and said, "Can I pray to become a Christian?" But the things she observed that had drawn her towards Christianity that made her want to, is she said she'd noticed two things about Christians. One of them was that they worked harder than everybody else, and the second one was that they seemed happier than everybody else. 

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[00:47:31] And I think what she was seeing and describing is what you've actually just said, people who are working unto the Lord, well, they're doing it from a place of rest. They're not working for love to prove themselves an identity, but they're actually doing it from love. And that's where the joy comes from in knowing that you have nothing left to prove, because the victory is already won in Christ. And I just want to finish out this episode by just reading to us this verse from 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 57, which says, "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." And I think, isn't that the point? That we have victory in Jesus so we can work unto the Lord, but we can do it with joy because we're doing it (as he said so well) not for love, but we're working from love. 

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