Jo Vitale [00:00:35] So welcome to the podcast where we invite you to Ask Away. Hi everyone. Welcome to today's episode of Ask Away. I'm Joe Vitale. 

‍

Vince Vitale 00:00:47] And I'm Vince. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:00:48] And we have really loved hearing from you guys. We've been appreciating your really thoughtful questions, and we've been especially enjoying some of the reviews that you have posted online. One of them really made us laugh that we got the other day. It was called No Socks for My Grandchildren from Warren. Thank you Warren. You had us giggling when you wrote the last two episodes. "It completely blessed my socks off and now my sweaty feet are directly ruining my shoes. But I'm happy to spend more money on replacement socks and replacement shoes. I love the recent episode on marriage. I'm a father of four children, and the wisdom that was oozing out of your most recent podcast is going to have the same sock removal impact on their lives and hopefully their children's lives as well. You're really bringing glory to God through these podcasts. Thank you." Well, thank you, Warren, for having us giggling. I'm sorry about the stinky feet, but yeah, we just want to encourage you guys that, if this podcast has been a blessing to you and you're excited to support Ask Away, then one of the best ways you can actually do that is just by leaving a review on your podcast app. You can be creative. Vince and I really enjoy reading them and we love hearing from you. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:01:54] Yeah, we're always praying that the podcast can have an impact, Warren. That's not quite the impact we had in mind, but it really gives us smiles. So thanks a lot. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:02:02] Anyway, Warren set the bar, so see if you can beat that. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:02:05] See if you can beat that.

‍

Jo Vitale [00:02:06] Yeah. But today's question is from Trent. I just want to thank you for the questions that you sent in. You sent a couple. We're only going to be able to get to one of them today. Hopefully at a later point, we can come back to the other one as well. But I just appreciate the sincerity with which you asked your question and the way you shared about some of the challenges and struggles that you're facing in this season of your faith. And so Trent's question for today is this one. "Why isn't God more clear in revealing himself in his motives and his character and his morality? If he wants to have a relationship with people and loves them, why doesn't God reveal himself more plainly, or at least provide fewer barriers that need to be overcome to believe in him?" 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:02:51] Yeah, it's so good, Trent. It's just so much truth in this question. It's like jam packed with good theology, and so we just wanted to start this episode by just commending again to all of our listeners. It's something that we often do, but just a positive approach to people's questions. You've probably heard us say several times, every question has a true answer, and all truth is grounded in God. Therefore, every question is a gift. And, therefore, when we hear people's questions and even their objections, we need to train ourselves to look for the truth and the good in the question or objections to that we can find common ground and build a bridge. That's what Jesus did in John four with the Samaritan woman, his longest recorded conversation. It's what Paul did with the Athenians in Acts 17. And we need to work hard at this, because it is the complete opposite of the approach that we see all around us in today's polarized, divisive, angry culture. Every time we read the news, that unhealthy pattern gets reinforced in our brains where we don't want to look for what's good. No, we want to immediately find what we think is most wrong with another person's question or objection, and then try to undermine it, undermine their position as fast as we possibly can, and then do a dramatic mic drop. That is the pattern of our culture. And the problem is when you drop the mic, you forfeit your right to be heard. And so when we read Trent's question for today, we thought this is awesome, because there's just so much good in this question that Trent has given us to work with. 

‍

[00:04:28] And first he asks why isn't God more clear in revealing himself? And it immediately jumped out at us that this assumption embedded in the question right at the beginning of the question, is that if we're going to know God, if we have any chance of knowing God, it's going to have to be through God revealing himself. That coming to know God is primarily a matter of him showing himself to us, not of me or any of us somehow clawing our way to figure him out. And I always think in my head, I just sort of think visually sometimes. And I think about two circles, one that represents a huge circle, that represents the totality of all there is to be known. And then another very small circle that represents everything that I know. And when I reflect on the proportions between those two circles, the idea that we, as finite humans, can somehow claw our way to the deep truths of the universe based on our own intelligence, seems to me, ironically, highly irrational. If we want to know the deep truths of life, that can only happen if someone whose perspective is much higher than ours. Someone who can see that big circle in its totality. If that person steps into our little circle to reveal to us what we need to know. And that's precisely the core and distinctive claim of the Christian faith. We don't work our way up to God. We can't work our way up to God in grace. He comes down to us. And that core theological truth, which I love, Trent, in your question is implied right at the beginning of what you said. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:06:09] Yeah, that's so true about the circles. I feel like the more I learn, the less I know. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:06:15] My circle keeps getting smaller. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:06:18] Well, especially when I'm sleep deprived. It definitely shrinks depending on how much sleep I had. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:06:22] When your kids start asking you questions about how the universe works and you're like, great question. I have no idea. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:06:29] Yeah. Raph's question the other day, why do we only have two arms? It was a good question.

‍

Vince Vitale [00:06:33] Very fair. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:06:34] Fair. But another thing that I love that you said, Trent, was why isn't God more clear? And I read that and it just struck me as fair point. It's not that I don't think God has been clear, but I do certainly think he could be more clear. I mean, let's be honest, there are no limits to the ways that God could show up if he wanted to. And we have so many examples, don't we? We have stories in the Bible where God is just so very obvious in the way that he shows up for people, whether it's burning bushes or writing just appearing on a wall, or the parting of seas, or sending fire from heaven, or blinding Saul on the road to Damascus, there are times when God has been so obvious. I mean, I've seen it in the lives of people around me. My dad came to faith because he was at the Grand Canyon, and he swears he had an audible voice saying, "I made it." 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:07:20] So awesome. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:07:21] I mean, great for you, dad. What about the rest of us? Where's my audible voice? I've seen God showing up in incredible ways for many people around me, but sometimes that can make it harder; doesn't it? Like, why are you so obvious there, but not over here? I also think that question of clarity in the context of your question, you actually applied it to the Bible as well. Why is the Bible sometimes just hard to make sense of and hard to read? I think the Bible is clear for salvation, but I also think there are a number of things it doesn't speak to as clearly as it could. And we know that if God wanted to, he could. He's such a clear communicator, he could show up and say whatever he wanted. It could be like one of those little asterisks you get on online forms when you don't understand how you feel in your tax return, and you click the button and explains everything. I'm like, why can't the Holy Spirit do that? When you're reading scripts, you just click the asterisks and be like, this is exactly what I meant by this text. God can do whatever he wants to do. There's no limit to what he can do or how obvious he chooses to be in our lives. So there's certainly a sense in which he's chosen to be this way. He's chosen to come in at this level of clarity, but he could do more. And we believe one day in heaven, actually, he will. He will be so very obvious that we'll all see him face to face and live with him for eternity. So why then but not now in the same way? 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:08:37] Yeah. And then we're asking the right question at least. And I feel like sometimes, this is a good example, Joe, where oftentimes we might hear someone say, "Why isn't God more clear?" And we immediately get on the back of our heels and feel defensive and go, "Oh no, someone's saying something that's negative about God." I need to say, "No, God is clear. He's always clear. He's as clear as he possibly can be." And then we sometimes miss the right question. No, God's omnipotent. There are some sense, at least, in which he could be more clear. So why would it be the case then that he's not as clear sometimes, at least for a fraction of our overall eternal lives, as he could be? Sometimes we actually miss the right question, because we're not willing to concede a truth that is in a person's question or concern. And so a third really important truth-- this one is really important-- that we saw in Trent's question is its focus on relationship. Trent said if he wants to have a relationship with people and loves them, why doesn't God reveal himself more plainly? That phrase at the beginning is spot on and so important. And sometimes we can take that for granted. But God's goal is for us to have a deep, intimate, loving relationship with him is very distinctive in Christianity. In the Christian faith, the end goal of humanity is not just to earn some sort of reward, or to gain entry to some form of pleasure paradise, or a heavenly theme park; rather, it is to be in loving relationship with God. And excitingly, that means we don't need to wait to enter eternity. There is a significant sense in which that can start right now, which is why the Bible says eternal life is to know God and the one he sent. And this point about relationship is so critical to today's question, because if we don't know what God is after, then we won't know what to think about how he gets there. 

‍

[00:10:31] If you show me some driving directions but you don't tell me where you are headed, I'm going to have no idea whether those directions are any good. Because they might be terrible directions for getting to many destinations, but great directions for getting where you are actually desiring to go. If God's one and only aim was to get people to intellectually believe in him-- just intellectually, theoretically, in their heads, if that's the destination he's after, then he's not doing a great job because he could just start writing in the sky or making it rain chocolate, which would be just an obvious argument for his existence. But if God is after relationship, if that's the destination, then we need to ask a different question. What would be the best way for him to foster freely chosen, genuine, deep relationship? And once we asked that question, it becomes much less clear that he can get that destination simply by making himself obvious through dramatic, unmistakable, indisputable miracles. If God just appeared miraculously in all of his heavenly glory, would we do what he says? I suspect we would. But would we be doing it out of love and relationship or just out of fear? If God was utterly obvious all the time, we might intellectually believe in him more easily. I think miracles can get that fairly easily, but that's not the core of what God is after. If God primarily wants for relationship, that means developing love and trust in the context of free choices over time. Trust can't be forced. It's easy for God to get us to believe in him. It's much harder for him to get us to trust him in the context of real relationship. We all know that forcing yourself into someone's life does not go well. That does not lead to healthy, lasting relationship. God doesn't want us to say yes to him merely because of a power dynamic. He wants us to trust him because of his character. Not just his power, not merely because he's overpowering, but because we learn to trust him, as Trent said, in the context of relationship. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:12:50] Yeah, it's interesting actually, Trent, because you mentioned why isn't God clearer about his character? But I wonder if one of the ways he's being clear about his character is by not showing up in an overwhelming way that actually tells us something about his character, doesn't it? That the what he's after isn't fear, but actually it's love. So maybe in the very act of, in some sense, withholding something of his obviousness, he actually is telling us something about who he is that's quite profound. I kind of hear what Vince is saying, and I think often our reaction to that is to think, well, no, of course we don't want that. We don't want to be overwhelmed. We don't want to be forced into a relationship. But I think some of what you are getting at, in what you said around your question, Trent, was actually, well, he doesn't have to overwhelm us, but why not just give us a bit more? You know, I think of Bertrand Russell, the atheist whose famous complaint was, you know what? If you get to heaven and it turns out you were wrong and God exists, and he said, well, I'm just going to say not enough evidence, God. Not enough evidence was his response. And, Trent, you mentioned in particularly some of the challenges we have about reading the Bible. And you gave a couple of examples of what about like how do we reconcile creation accounts with what we know of science? So how do we make sense of different theories around the atonement? Why couldn't God just be a little bit clearer on some of these different questions like that, just to give us enough, just to kind of reasonably and be able to say, okay, I don't have to wade through so many hard things in order to figure out what exactly is the Bible saying. And I guess the couple of thoughts that came to mind when I was reflecting on that, because I felt what you were saying, because I think there have been times in my life when I've really had that question too. 

‍

[00:14:30] I'll be honest. I resonated with what you were asking. There was a whole year of my life where I was really struggling with how do I read scripture? And in particular, it was about some difficult passages that I just couldn't really get past. And I remember just thinking, God, it would have been so easy for you just to change like 30 words in the Bible and clear some things up, and then it wouldn't be such hard work trying to make sense of this. And some of them were personal to me, and I felt them almost as like a justice issue. And I was like why, of all things, would you allow this to be a bit hard to interpret and understand? And so I felt the emotional weight of your question as you were writing about it. But I've also come to a place, I think, because I went on that journey for quite a long time, and there are many ways in which I still come across tough Bible passages and I still have to wrestle through how do I understand these texts? So it's not like an over and done with experience. But there was something about that process. There was something about having to engage with biblical texts precisely because they weren't necessarily easy to always understand, and especially having to do that in the context of community, of actually having to work for unity, even around issues that we instinctively disagree on sometimes within the church that I've actually come to find a deeply meaningful part of my faith. And, honestly, I never thought I would say that at the time. There was a point where I thought, I don't know if I'm ever going to come through this during my master's degree, in particular in the Old Testament. 

‍

[00:15:59] But there was something about that process of actually having to wrestle to understand these passages, and both by bringing them to other people and working it through with others in my community, but also by bringing them to God and praying through them and reading the commentaries and digging deep, that I actually think I grew and deepened in my faith in a way that I don't know that I otherwise would have if it hadn't been hard, if I hadn't actually had to choose to lean into God, to work through these questions that actually keep coming to him, to bring them before him, to saying, God help me. I want to understand who you are. I want to know what your character is like. Are you trustworthy? Are you good? Can I rely on your goodness? Even in the cases where I don't understand and things don't seem clear to me. And sometimes, I'll be honest, that journey isn't resolved in a week or in a month. Sometimes there are questions we can wrestle with for years. Sometimes I think perhaps for a lifetime. But what I would say is that through that experience, I built up a testimony of a God who does show up in my question asking. And it's actually even changed my experience of how I now approach reading the Bible, because it used to be that I would come across difficult texts, and I would kind of get the sick feeling in my stomach, like this feeling of panic like, oh no, is the whole thing going to fall apart if I can't get to grips with how I interpret this particular passage, if I can't immediately see God's goodness in it. 

‍

[00:17:26] But because I found time and time again that when I didn't run from God with the questions, but instead brought in to him that actually he would begin to reveal things about his character to me that I'd never seen before that actually wound up stunning me. I was stunned by how much better he was than what I thought in terms of his morality and his character and his heart, and what it really disclosed to me about him. And so I just want to encourage you, even if you're in a place where some of this stuff is really hard that you're wrestling with, don't give up. Keep loving the Lord with your mind by bringing him your questions. Stick with him. Bring them before him. Some of the best relationships in my life are the ones where I've had to work through hard things, and in the process, I've come to understand somebody's heart so much better. It's made the relationships more meaningful, and it's made them deeper. And a way, I guess, where I've kind of landed with some of these challenging texts that we find in the Bible is with the words of [inaudible] says we may be in the dark about what God is doing, but we're not in the dark about God. And I think in some ways I feel like there are some texts that I may never understand. But what I've come to see in scripture is enough about who God is to say, God, I think I know who you are, even if I don't always get how you do things. And they don't always necessarily make sense to me. And so I just want to encourage you as someone who's kind of been in that place, I think it can be a good place to be. And actually it can strengthen your faith if you keep going with it. So don't quit. Thank you for bringing your question. I think that's part of you pressing in. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:18:56] Yeah. And it's been awesome, Jo, actually, I'm just reflecting on it as you're speaking some of the very passages which were so difficult for you at one point, are now some of the passages-- not all of them, there's that journey that's continuing, but some of those are some of the passages that you most love sharing with people now. Through that wrestle, through that journey. It wasn't just kind of like you got to the point, like, okay, I guess I can be okay with this, but God actually excited you about that part of his word. And maybe that's part of what it means for it to be like a living word, the scriptures as well. There's no other book in our lives that we would read over and over the way that we read the Bible. To read the same book every year, it's just so weird. If you think about any other book where you've read it, you know what it says, and it's maybe a really great book you'll go back to 2 or 3 times, but there's something very different. And part of it is that that continual wrestle over the years with the Word of God as it is alive and living and speaking back to you. And that's just been really cool in your own testimony to see that it's not just like you've pushed those passages aside or come to a place of being okay with them. You've actually come to a place where you're particularly excited about those passages and to share them with others. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:20:18] I love that you mention that, because I actually did an event last night with a group of female students specifically on how do we read hard texts about women in the Bible. And I was sent a list of 10 questions ahead of time. And each one of them was like a thorny Old Testament passage. And I looked down the list and they were all the questions that I'd had. But rather than feeling like, oh no, I was really excited because I could see, going into the event, I think there's someone else here who's in the place I was in, and I'm going to have something to share with them today that might actually bring them hope. The hope that I needed at that point in my life. So, yeah, it has been exactly that experience. The other thing that's funny with that is sometimes the very text that, if I had an eraser, there were times when I might have just wanted to take out of the Bible because I found them so hard, turned out to be the very text that other people found to be the thing that changed their perspective about God or brought them closer to him as well in a good way. Sometimes the text that I was like, "oh no, why is this here?" Someone else said, "I was struggling with my faith and then I read this passage and it all came together for me." And I'm like, wow, has it? So it made me think, well, maybe God knows what he's doing. Maybe he has reasons for putting things in the Bible that don't make sense to me even now, because someone else has a different journey, a different story, different questions, different life experience. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:21:35] And even that's really challenging because we're so individualistic that we're like, why isn't this book perfect for me? 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:21:42] Right. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:21:43] Right. But, of course, God so loved the world. He's writing scriptures for the entire world, across history, across cultures. So that's a really good point you bring up as well. This whole conversation reminds me of a story that you'll remember, Jo, as we kind of circle around this question of what would it look like for God to make himself clearly knowable, but also not unavoidable? And I'm remembering when a friend of ours was having this really wonderful conversation with a sibling of hers who was not a Christian at the time, and they were talking through this challenge of how does God introduce us to his character without just overwhelming us with all of his power and glory? And as their sibling was beginning to understand the challenge and the tension of that, and that that wasn't maybe as easy as first thought, she said, "Well, wouldn't it be cool if God came in disguise as a human?" And then her eyes sort of went wide as she realized that through their conversation, she had sort of stumbled through their reasoning process of their conversation upon the central tenet of the Christian narrative, that God came to us in the most perfect way that would be both clear but also completely relatable as a perfect person, that perfect unity of humanity and divinity. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:23:02] Yeah. It's like, what is that 90s song? "What if God was one of us?" 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:23:08] There you go. You nailed it. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:23:08] Just a stranger on the bus. What a classic. I've just totally aged myself, haven't I? That was terrible. Anyway, but I guess the point we're making to get back on track is that God may actually have good reason not to be obvious all the time, or certainly for a time for a season. And yet we also want to say that if you see things through different filter or lens, yes, God could be more clear. And he has good reason for that, perhaps for not being so. But let's not underestimate at the same time how clear he has actually been. If God is in hiding, he's not doing a great job, is he? I mean, let's be honest, so many people are finding God that he would need to get a lot better at hide and seek. I think about even when did Jesus come? The way that he came at the exact point in history where Roman roads made the world more wide open and accessible than it had ever been before, and the Greek language made the Bible more readable for so many, and the gospel more shareable than at any other point in history. Like God specifically chose a time when the communication of the gospel could go forth in a way that it wouldn't have at any other point up until then. And look at where we are today. Historically, it started off with this tiny little movement in this sort of backwater of Judea, and now a couple of billion people around the world today are saying that they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 

‍

[00:24:32] So it's not like God is hiding himself a ton here. And I think it can be easy to focus on the frustrations of unanswered questions. And Vince sometimes talks about the difference between the hole poking approach where we look to poke all the holes, find all the problems to destroy something, versus looking at the whole and saying, well, what is the holistic picture that is being built up overall? And I think of that when it comes to Scripture as well. I could say, well, there was still some texts in the Bible that I find hard to understand. Maybe there are like a couple of hundred of them, if I'm honest, that I don't know always how to read them. But then I think about the fact that there are 31,000 verses in Scripture, and suddenly it all comes into perspective for me. And I think, well, wow, actually, isn't it incredible how much we can say with clarity and how much we do know, particularly of a revelation of a text that was written over centuries and in ancient culture by multiple authors in multiple languages and contexts. And yet it still presents such an overarchingly clear and consistent picture of a God who speaks and he wants to be known, who is actually revealing who he is throughout this book. It's painting this portrait of a God who is good and just and loving and merciful, like it actually holds together in a way that you would just never expect if it was just a work of human authorship. So rather than focusing on the problems, I wonder if sometimes we need to kind of step back a second and be like, wow, how much do we know? And how much has God actually given us to work with to understand not only who he is in Jesus, but also a whole family history of the story of God and His pursuit of us. This specific pursuit of a God whose whole narrative through the Bible-- the Bible isn't just the revelation of God itself in his work, but it's the story of his unfolding revelation to us throughout history. That's actually at the very heart of who he is, this desire to be known by us. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:26:30] Yeah. And that certainly aligns with what the Bible says in various places. I think of Romans one, that even people who have never heard the name Jesus have at least some knowledge of God. It says, "What is known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made." It's an incredibly strong statement. It's saying not just that we know something about God, but his divine nature. It says that it's plain to people because God has shown it to them. And then it uses this even more emphatic word to say that God's nature has been clearly perceived. And I think a lot of people when they realize a passage like that is actually referring to nonbelievers, they're not sure what to make of that sort of statement. But when I actually take the time-- and I don't do this enough, many of us don't do this enough. But when I actually take the time to sit back and wonder at the awesomeness of the universe, I find myself amazed that we don't think the supernatural is more obvious. I mean, right now we're all sitting or standing on a rock that's rotating at a thousand miles an hour, flying around the sun at 67,000 miles an hour, as part of a galaxy hurling in over a million miles an hour through a universe nearly 100 billion light years in size. I mean, that's crazy. And without God, I don't think we have any explanation of where this universe came from, let alone its incredible complexity and purpose. We'll do other episodes on that. 

‍

[00:28:11] But when people question whether there's a supernatural realm, I sometimes want to reverse the question and ask whether there's really any such thing as a natural realm. Is there anything in life that is not a miracle? And that kind of raises this interesting question to me about why, historically, when you think about ancient cultures, the supernatural or divine realm, it seems like that used to be more obvious. Because, of course, the idea of naturalism or atheism, the idea that a divine creator and designer is not necessary to explain life, from a historical perspective, I'd say that's an incredibly new idea. Not that no one believed it in the past, but it's, on the whole, a newer idea. And even today, if you're thinking from a global perspective, it's a far less popular belief than theism or supernaturalism. So why has atheism become more popular in recent times, at least in certain pockets of the globe? What is the justification for adopting an atheistic belief even though the vast, vast majority of thoughtful people throughout history have disagreed with that belief? It doesn't mean that it's wrong, but it's at least worth asking that question. When the vast majority of people have disagreed, is it that the people in certain modern countries who hold that belief are smarter than everyone else throughout the globe and everyone else who has existed in history? Is it because they have new evidence against God that historically other cultures didn't have? See, I don't buy either of those hypotheses at all. I mean, I would actually argue, and this is probably another episode, but that the opposite is true. Cosmological arguments for God, design arguments, arguments about the resurrection of Jesus, moral arguments, I would argue that all of the major arguments for God's existence have gotten more robust as we have learned more about science and more about the regularity of the universe. 

‍

[00:30:16] And so when I think it through, perhaps the main reason we find it easier today to dismiss God or just to ignore God or put him on the back burner, is because we live lives that are so distracted from the deep questions of life. Maybe that's the primary answer. We walk around with our heads in our phones all day, reading whatever Apple tells us to, thinking about whatever a certain algorithm puts before our eyes, entertaining ourselves with the tap of a screen, spending most of our days jumping from one superficial thought to another. Blaise Pascal said all of humanity's problems boil down to this one thing, our inability to sit in a room alone in silence. And I've always really appreciated that quote. Pascal thought if we actually took the time to disconnect from all the distractions of life, we would finally be faced with the reality of our mortality and of our sinfulness and of our conscience. All of which points, he would say, beyond ourselves to eternal truth. We don't spend enough time alone without distractions, just us and the deepest questions of life. We hope this podcast helps in that regard, but I think it's amazing. Pascal was saying that several hundred years ago. What would he think today? He would just be utterly amazed at the distractions that we deal with. And kind of a side note, but it also makes me think how I rarely meet a materialist surfer. Surfing is my favorite hobby, it's something that I love to do. And when I talk with surfers, I quite rarely meet a materialist or kind of a strongly atheistic surfer. And it's just interesting to me that when you're sitting out there in the water humbled by the magnitude of the ocean at daybreak or at sunset, there's just a sense in which the transcendent is obvious. And it has been obvious to most of humanity throughout history that so much more clearly lived in the context of God's creation. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:32:24] One of Vince's best friends, he's a phenomenal surfer. I just remember the birthday present he once gave you. I Surf, Therefore I Am was the name of the book. And I'm like, that's perfect. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:32:33] Oh yeah, I think I think that's Peter Kreeft's book.

‍

Jo Vitale [00:32:38] Totally been vibing on that. But it's so true. I think that's a really good challenge for anyone listening. Just try and spend half an hour a day this week in complete silence and see how it goes. I once had to spend a summer in a church placement while I was in seminary, where every morning I had to go to morning prayer and just spend half an hour sitting in a church doing nothing. Just sat with my eyes shut, just thinking about God. And I wasn't even alone. I was there to talk to God and pray. And it still felt like such a long time. It really shocked me how hard I found it to enter into that space. But by the end of the summer, I came to really love that time. It became very precious to me. But it's not our default setting. That's what you're saying. It reminds me of this video that you used to show students in class about a bunch of guys playing basketball, and you would say to them at the beginning of the video, like, watch how many times they pass the ball. And everyone would be totally focused in on the video. And then they'd say it was 10 or 12 or however many times it was. And then the end of the video, this question appears and says, but did you see the bear? 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:33:44] You can find this on YouTube. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:33:46] It's hilarious. There's this guy in a bear costume who goes dancing across the screen, does a little wiggle in the middle and then leaves and you don't see him at all. If you're focused on watching the ball being tossed, you don't notice the bear. And he's so obvious. Like the whole how do you not see the bear? You can't unsee it when you've seen it. But to me that just exemplifies we're distracted. Like our eyes are actually focused on something else. So is it any surprise that even if God was being completely obvious, we're not looking. He could be there dancing before our eyes and we're just not paying attention. One of the favorite questions that we like to ask to help people slow down and kind of reflect on this idea is, have you ever had an experience that made you think that there might be a God? And it's kind of an interesting question, because it usually causes people to pause for a second and look a little bit awkward, and you feel a bit embarrassed asking it because you think they're going to think I'm so weird for asking this question, but if you just wait long enough, you'll be absolutely stunned by the answers that people give you. They'll look a little bit hesitant. And then after a minute they'll say, well, "There was this one time," and then they'll tell you this unbelievable story of some kind of supernatural, miraculous thing that happened in their life that it's completely impossible to find some kind of rational explanation for. And yet it's like they've just shut it out of their memory. It's like it had no impact on them. It's just been kind of packed up and put away into the realm of forgetfulness. And I think it's because we don't know what to do with that stuff and we're not sure we want to engage with it. And so we kind of put it to the side like the dancing bear, it's just not where our attention is fixed. So it raises a really significant question for us, which is, if God did make himself more obvious, would you follow him? If he actually did, would you follow him? Is that actually what you would want? 

‍

[00:35:37] I actually think this is the objection that Jesus raises as well. And in one of his parables, there's a story in Luke 16 about someone who's died and says, well, please, can you send me back to my family so I can appear to them and warn them about the future so that they can choose to follow God? And then the response that's given to that person is, if they didn't listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead. And that's always really struck me because Jesus did rise from the dead. And I think he probably had himself in mind when he was giving that response. There's so much evidence for the resurrection of Jesus that so often people won't even look into you if we're being really honest. But even in Jesus' lifetime, there's this event where Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, and a bunch of people saw it. And what was the result of that event? Well, the Jewish leaders at the time they get together, and that's the thing that tipped them over the edge into deciding we've got to kill him. The response off of this has happened and everyone's talking about it is we have to kill this person. And it's interesting, even if you read some later rabbinic sources, that Jesus is referred to actually as a magician who led Israel astray both later on and in Jesus' lifetime. It's not that the Jewish leaders of the day, the Pharisees, they weren't actually denying his power or his miracles, or that he was going around doing incredible things, but actually what they couldn't accept about him were the conclusions that that might lead to, the decision was, oh, it must be of the devil. It can't be of God. 

‍

[00:37:03] I think it's because it would have been so uncomfortable to really think through what does this mean if these things are actually true. If this is really God before men, so much would have had to change in their own lives about the traditions they held to and the way they saw the world, and perhaps the power that they had in the community and how they wanted things to be, that they would rather hold on to how they'd known the world to be than to be confronted with a different kind of truth. And Jesus says to those Pharisees in John chapter five, "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, and yet you refuse to come to me to have life." And it's kind of this heartbreaking, fascinating moment where he's like, I'm standing right in front of you and I'm here and I'm offering life, but you don't actually want to take it. So I guess the point is, I do actually believe God has revealed himself in a clear way, but not in an unavoidable way. And Blaise Pascal puts it this way. He says God desires to reveal himself clearly to those who desire him, but not forcibly to those who don't. And so he's given us enough evidence to believe rationally, but not so much that we can believe based on reason alone. And I think that's an interesting perspective because it brings us to a question that is good for everyone who doesn't believe in God to ask themselves, if God did make himself obvious to you, would you follow him? Not just believe in him intellectually, but really follow him, really pursue relationship with him. And if not, then why would he make himself obvious to us? Like, why would he? 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:38:32] Because relationship again is what he's after, not just mere intellectual belief. Jo really has led us here into a final point. Which, Trent, you're absolutely right. And thanks again for such a rich question. We just scratched the surface of it, but we've really been blessed by it. And we've learned from wrestling through it. Just this point that you make that there are barriers to knowledge of God. Why doesn't God provide fewer barriers that need to be overcome to believe in him? There are barriers. But one way I would put it is that whenever we ask a question of God, it's always good to turn the question around and ask it of ourselves as well, because the Bible affirms that there are barriers to knowing God. But as Jo has begun to open up, it says that those barriers come primarily not from God, but from ourselves and what's going on in our hearts. And even I referenced Romans one earlier, where in verse 19 it says that people know God, at least in some significant sense, even people who are not what we might say are believers. But just prior to that, in verse 18, it at least implies that people don't know God because they suppress the truth. We hold it down so that it can't rise to the surface. And so there's this tension where it's almost like people don't know God because they suppress the truth. And at the same time, they do know God because he has made himself known and he has been clearly perceived. And I find that really interesting. And there's actually a whole philosophical literature trying to make sense of this weird, but sometimes undeniable reality that, paradoxically, we sometimes in one sense know things that in another sense we don't know. We willfully can keep knowledge that in some sense we have from ourselves, or at least from what's actively going on in our brains. And the term that is usually used to describe that is self-deception. 

‍

[00:40:28] And I find it really interesting that when philosophers-- not Christian philosophers in particular, but just philosophers generally, when they philosophize about what it is that causes this double mindedness, to use a biblical term or self-deception that we both know and don't know certain things, four of the top answers given for what causes that in the secular philosophical literature are anxiety, fear, desire for pleasure, and jealousy. And I remember reading that and thinking, whoa, it's amazingly perceptive answers. I mean, incredibly aligned with a biblical worldview that the barriers to the knowledge of God is there for us to know, and that sometimes in some sense we already do know but suppress. The barrier is not that there's not enough evidence around us, but rather the state of our hearts within us. And this is really important because there's a relationship biblically between the state of our hearts and how clear God is to our minds. I think about John chapter seven, Jesus says, "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." And we often think the order should be in the reverse. Like once I find out the knowledge that this teaching is from God, then I will choose to do the will of God. But there is this really interesting fact about biblical epistemology that I think is under-recognized. Biblically, we don't first gain knowledge in some sort of passive way and then choose to live in accordance with it if it happens to come to us. Rather, we are challenged to first to live in pursuit of God, and then we will find the knowledge we are looking for. Same thing in the next chapter, John eight, Jesus says, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." The Bible says you can only truly test the reality of God by attempting to live life God's way. One way of putting it is that the Bible refuses to disconnect knowledge of God from relationship with God. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:42:45] Yeah, the other verse that is coming to mind for me is Jeremiah 29 verse 13. "You seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart." And, again, it's that sense of, God, if you make yourself obvious to me, then I'll pursue you with my whole heart. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:43:00] Right. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:43:00] But actually, Jesus is saying, take a step here and pursue me with everything you've got and that's when you're going to find me, when you actually really want it. And I think I mentioned I struggle with this question in part because there were times when I wished myself, in my own journey, I'll go, why can't you be more obvious in this area? I think I also struggle because I have friends who would say that they are seeking earnestly, that they had times in their life where they really did reach out to God and prayed and asked him, God, reveal yourself to me if you're real, I want to know you. And they felt like nothing happened, and that was the point at which they kind of walked away and stopped believing because they felt like God didn't show up. And that's painful when you feel like but I was earnest, I was sincere, I did want it. And I think there can be a couple of reasons for that. I think sometimes it is to do with what's going on inside of us. Perhaps we set up certain expectations, like, God, if you just can answer this one question for me, or if you can jump this hurdle and answer it in a way that is satisfying to me, then I'll believe in you. And it's kind of like saying, God, you've got to meet me on my terms rather than me pursuing you on your own. Other times I wonder if it's because in our mind, the way we've come to envision what it would mean for God to show up for us is almost based on somebody else's religious experience. And we sort of think, I want the burning bush. Well, only one person got one of those. No one else got a burning bush. But I think we get fixated on the set way of how we should experience it or how God would show up. But I also think that can be more to it as well. You may sincerely be seeking, but it may be that the Lord's timing is different from ours. And that can be hard to take. If I have a friend who prays that prayer, I won't go to show up there and then. 

‍

[00:44:47] And I don't want them to go through this struggle of pursuit, but I also can recognize that actually there can be a value in that too. Part of what it means to really seek someone with your whole heart is you don't give up in five seconds just because they don't immediately respond. There's something to that going off to something that actually shows whether you really want it with your whole heart. And, actually, I think some people I've known for whom it really has been like a long journey in pursuit and wrestle over what is true and who is God, that even in that journey God was actually forming something really deep in their hearts and in their lives that actually when they then did come to know Christ and step into faith, that long pursuit and that long journey actually formed them in a really substantive way for what God was then calling them to do for the purpose that he had on their lives, and even in the way that it molded them to who they were going to become as people. It was like they almost leapt so much further ahead when they started out because of the journey that they've been on with God. So he doesn't always do things the way that we want him to do. He doesn't always do them with the immediacy that we might sometimes desire, but I think it's because he actually knows us better than we know ourselves, and he knows when we're ready and whether we actually really want him like that. Jeremiah statement says, you seek me and you will find me when you seek me with all your heart. It's not about I'm just seeking this idea of God out there because I kind of want the perks or I want help in trouble or I want life to work out for me better or I want this stuff I'm going to get from him or I want certain aspects of God, but it's actually, do I want him? 

‍

[00:46:21] Do I really want him? Or am I a little bit scared to truly pursue because I'm a bit afraid of what I might find out in him if I really came face to face with him? That maybe scares me a little bit. I mentioned my dad and how he had that kind of radical encounter, but there's also a reality to his story that that wasn't the first step. Actually, several years before, when he was in high school, he really wrestled with the Christian faith and he actually came to a point, I think, of intellectually finding it persuasive, but he himself would admit his heart wasn't there. There were other things he wanted more, and so he actually walked away from it. And he had gone through the intellectual pursuit. He'd actually found it reasonable, but that wasn't what was really holding him back. And it was a number of years later when he then went on that trip around the states, saw the Grand Canyon, that then I guess the Lord knew his heart was in a different place to actually be able to hear it. And that's when he had this revelatory experience of hearing a voice say, "I made it." And that was when he kind of actually came to submitting to God and wanting a relationship with him. But it was in God's timing, not in human terms. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:47:30] Yeah. Just one last barrier to deep knowledge of God. And we just wanted to mention this briefly because we found it significant in our own lives even as Christians, that we just tend to be so forgetful. Oftentimes, God has done so much in my life and it's amazing how I can just forget. I can forget what I prayed for. I can forget that he came through on those prayers. I remember hearing this story of someone who had become a Christian, and her husband was really not impressed and thought, I know what I'll do. I'll write down my wife's prayer request every day for a year, and then at the end of the year, I'll be able to show her that this Christianity stuff is rubbish. And at the end of the year, he went back through a year's worth of prayer requests and then look at what the year looked like and became a Christian himself. And it really brings conviction to me because I think, how often do I just forget what I prayed for, let alone ways that God answered it? And so just recently, actually in the last few months, I started so simple but it made a big difference. I put an album on my phone, a picture album on my phone, and I just titled it Ebeneezer so that I would remember. And whenever God does something incredible, whenever he shows his faithfulness, whether in a big way or a small way, I just take a picture that symbolizes his faithfulness in that moment to me, and I stick it in that album. And it's amazing how even just over the course of 2 or 3 weeks, I will be so forgetful. But then three weeks later I'll maybe be in a funk, open up that album and I'll just start moving picture to picture. And it only takes a few pictures for me to say to myself, oh no, actually, God, I'm so forgetful. God has been clear. He's been very clear. If I will just remember who he is and all that he's done. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:49:20] We must not communicate enough. I didn't know you have that album, but I think that's a great idea. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:49:25] Really, it's a great idea Jo, you should totally do it.

‍

Jo Vitale [00:49:29] I've been feeling really convicted because I ran into someone at church on Sunday who I hadn't seen in nearly a year, but she'd been praying for some really significant things in my life and in my family. And she asked me one question about, oh, how's it going with this one thing? And I had this unbelievable, miraculous testimony to share with her about how good had answered that prayer. And then she asked me a follow up question about another person in my life who she'd been praying for. And I had another literal miracle story of answered prayer to share with her. And as I was talking, I was like, whoa, just those two things alone happened in this last year, and I should be literally dancing down the street with joy because that's so incredible, but, instead, I'd shown up that day at church feeling kind of grumpy and exhausted. And I was like, why am I so forgetful? The joy runs out so quickly when God does the most astonishing things. And it's an encouragement in a way. If you're someone who's listening and isn't even sure what you believe about God, why not think about your own life and ask yourself that question. Where have I been forgetful, and have there been events in my life where actually that did cause me to think, well, there might be a God? And actually has he been answering prayers? It's been interesting to me that some of the people in my life who said to me, "Well, I prayed, and God has never shown up," if I could write down the story of some of the things I know have happened in their life, to me it's like that has been your testimony and all of these things have happened and you're still not sure? It blows my mind. I just think sometimes there's some fear going on, there's some double mindedness coming out of some fear and anxiety about do I really want to know this God? Do I really want to find him or am I going to keep suppressing this truth because it overwhelms me? 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:51:06] So is God playing hide and seek? Well, sort of, but I think he's hiding a bit like our kids, Jo. Our kids, many of you know are three and five and they love hide and seek. But I find it really interesting how they play. As we get older, as adults, we don't want to be found. If somebody tells me to play hide and seek, I want the very best hiding spot. I want to win. I want to impress everyone with how good my hiding spot is. I want to be on my own, hidden from everyone's view. But our kids, Raphael and JJ, their favorite part of hide and seek is getting found. Often to the point of hilarity. Like when you have barely stepped foot in the room that they're hiding in, and they just jump out with the biggest smiles and yell with joy because they are so excited for you to find them. And I think that is a bit more like God's version of hide and seek. When we actually want to find him truly, counting the cost, his timing, not ours, with all of our hearts, he delights in being found. 

‍

Jo Vitale We’re so glad you joined us for Ask Away.

‍

Vince Vitale If you have a question that needs answering, we’d love to hear it.

Send us an email at askawayquestion@gmail.com or call and leave a voicemail at 321-213-9670.

‍

Jo Vitale Ask Away is hosted by Vince and Jo Vitale, and produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

‍

Vince Vitale New episodes come out regularly, so make sure to subscribe.

‍

Jo Vitale The best way you can support Ask Away is to leave a review. All you have to do is open up the podcast app on your phone, look for Ask Away, scroll down until you see “Write your review” and tell us what you think.

‍

Vince Vitale See you next time. And remember, if you have a question, it’s worth asking.

‍