‍Jo Vitale [00:00:29] We believe every question is valuable and we receive every question as a gift. So welcome to the podcast where we invite you to ask away. Hi everyone, welcome to Ask Away. We are so thankful that you're giving us a hearing. We love hearing from you too. So just a reminder, please do send in your questions and leave review on Apple Podcasts. Let us know what you think. Today's question is one that I find pretty complicated, so I've been wrestling over it for the last few days, kind of going back and forth, wondering what is the best way to even engage with this question? So thank you so much Jordach, for just really asking a pertinent and timely question. I think what you're getting at here is really important in our culture today. So thanks for giving us something to wrestle over this week. Let me read Jordach's question to you and then we will get into it. 

‍

[00:01:24] So he's asking, how do we make sense of the fact that Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them and are our new creation, yet often find unbelievers with a healthier balance of self-regulation, EQ, dealing with people and overall a better lifestyle. The healthiest mentors I have had were people who didn't believe in Christ. And the mentors that did believe in Christ seemed to cause more trauma. Shouldn't transformation be clearly visible between the Christian and the non-Christian? Yeah, thank you so much for this question. I really appreciate it in part because some of the people that I love the most in this world aren't Christians, and I have so much respect and admiration for them. And part of what I see in their lives’ is that they are all people who are deeply invested and concerned about the state of the world and about what other people around them are experiencing in it and all of it. And they just seem to care deeply. And I learned so much from them. So, yeah, this question hits me, too. I think all of us probably at one point or another have wrestled with it and we've thought about it. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:02:28] Yeah. Awesome question, Jordach. I really appreciate it and looking forward to diving into it. And good to be here with you, Jo. Our five year old has started kindergarten now, so we are full time Uber drivers in addition to everything else, driving back and forth from drop offs and pickups. And this is kind of the closest thing to a date. So this is kind of nice, I think. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:02:48] I will be [crosstalk] for the next 18 years, so get comfortable. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:02:50] Kind of nice being in a room just the two of us here. Thank you, Jordach. I'm going to comment on a detail of your question first, but a really important detail and then we'll focus in on your broader question. But I was just thinking that it's interesting that you didn't just speak about finding unbelievers who have morally better lives than Christians generally, but you sort of honed in on some really interesting psychological categories when you spoke about self-regulation and EQ. I think that's actually really insightful of you because sometimes as Christians, we operate with a sort of assumption that Christians have a monopoly on truth. Sometimes it's probably subconscious. Not that we might say that explicitly, but it's sort of implicit assumption that dictates which truth claims we take seriously. There can even be maybe a fear or an arrogance that keeps us from taking seriously truth that may have been discovered or explored deeply by people outside of the Christian faith, which is sometimes the case especially with psychological categories such as EQ or self-regulation. Actually, I would say we need to remember that all truth is God's truth. 

‍

[00:04:03] There is no truth outside of God. If you learn something and it is objectively true, it's just true no matter who taught it to you because all truth is grounded in God. Now, that's obvious to us in some realms. I don't think I need a Christian mechanic to fix my car or a Christian surgeon to fix my knee. What they know about cars and knees is true because God made it true and it remains just as true independently of whether or not they realize that that truth is grounded in God. But interestingly, I think, when it comes to these sort of more immaterial or spiritual types of knowledge, things like IQ and self-regulation, which are more psychological categories, we can have this tendency to get wary or defensive and say that's not Christian, that's not biblical. And, look, maybe our wariness is good, but I would also encourage us not to jump to the conclusion that just because something is not coming from a Christian perspective, that it's not true. I would say instead, let's test everything and then let's test it through a biblical lens and then let's retain whatever is good. 

‍

[00:05:12] Jesus's parables work so often talking about truth that could be found in the secular realm. Just truth about farming or parenting or business transactions or relationships. And then he would integrate that truth into a biblical framework. Or if you think about Paul in acts 17, he finds truth in the poetry of the Athenians, and then he integrates that into a broader, deeper, more beautiful biblical vision for life. So just like if I have a car mechanic who knows something about cars that I don't know, I'm going to be thankful for his expertise and I'm going to want to learn from the truth that he has. But I'm also not just going to blindly trust. I've got one of those code readers for my car at home, and I want to make sure that what my mechanic is telling me is aligning with objective truth. 

‍

[00:05:58] In the same way, if a secular thinker has some expertise in neuroscience or psychology or trauma or behavioral sciences, or even practical wisdom, for example, things like safeguarding policies which sometimes secular organizations are better at than Christian ones. I want to be thankful and eager to see where I can learn while also placing a high value on ensuring that any truth I embrace is aligned with biblical truth. So all that to say, with respect to some of the specific more psychological categories that you mentioned, Jordach, I think Christians sometimes need to challenge themselves not to try to fix their own cars if they don't have the expertise. And we need to be humble enough to learn from the expertise of those outside, even of the Christian faith, while bringing all truth claims under the Lordship of Jesus. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:06:53] Yeah, that's so good. That posture of listening well I think it's so key to being a Christian. Listening to everybody is just vital. But I'm also curious about the categories you mentioned, because it kind of didn't surprise me that that was what you referenced: EQ, self-regulation, better lifestyle, caring for others. All of these, when you think about it, actually the practices and habits that we are taught to value and cultivate as a culture in general, I think, that the assumption seems to be if you want to get ahead in life and if you want to grow into a healthy and successful human being, these are the tools that you need. If you can get on with people, if you can read a room that's kind of social currency, then people will like you, then you'll win friends and influence people. It's better for everyone that we learn these skills because our society runs better when we're getting along. It will lead to a better life for you as well as everybody. And so it's in your self-interest to live this way. The same with things like self-regulation, self-discipline and practices and habits of discipline that lead to a well-balanced life. 

‍

[00:07:53] One of the things we often read is that all highly successful people are very disciplined in how they regulate themselves and their time. And it makes sense, right? If this life is all you have, then one of the ways to make the most of it is to excel in all of these areas. It's seen as the path to personal happiness for everyone. So it doesn't surprise me that you might see examples of people living really well into these areas because that's what we're all actually encouraged to do. And I also find it interesting that actually sometimes the hardest people to persuade that they actually have a need for Jesus are the people who are excelling in some of these areas precisely because they have this feeling that they've got it together already. They've figured life out, they're on top of it and so what do they need Jesus for? But I think I just want to caution us not to necessarily draw a direct parallel between good outward habits and the heart of a person. I don't think outward habits always necessarily reveal the full picture of what's going on inside precisely because they are the tools that our culture has told us that we need to excel in. I know, speaking of myself, that I can be the nicest person in the world all day long to people because I've learned that's how you're supposed to walk through life and live in the world. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:09:05] And you’re British. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:09:06] And I'm British, so it's culturally like imposed upon you. But internally, that may have nothing to do with what's going on. I could be a ball of simmering resentment inside and frustration and bitterness and be smiling at you. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:09:20] No, not you. Not you, hun.

‍

Jo Vitale [00:09:22] I know it's hard to believe, but trust me, I'm capable of that. And that's partly why I find online behavior so fascinating because I think they're very revealing. When you strip away the social norms, when there isn't blowback for people, they're not going to run into somebody the next day, they're not going to have to actually interact with someone who they've been offensive to online; when it's not actually going to mess with our own self-interest, what actually comes out of us? That is really interesting to me, that the difference between the habits we practice for social currency versus what we do when we think we can get away with it. Some of the most harsh and critical people online, some of them I've met in person and they've turned out to be so nice to my face, like, so nice. It can be a little confusing. What fascinates me about this is that when we're talking about God, it says in the Bible that man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. And he knows that they are not always the same. We can, on the surface, look like we have such good self-regulation and EQ, that we're gliding peacefully through life kind of like a swan. But underneath are we paddling frantically just to stay afloat, are we exhausted just trying to sustain ourselves in this persona that we've cultivated? 

‍

[00:10:37] We can be nice to people all day if we want, but beyond the social capital of niceness, beyond the self-interest of being nice to people because they're nice to you, Jesus talks about something so much more than that. He talks about the heart level. He talks about anger that looks like murder. Lust that is actually adultery. That is the level at which Jesus Christ is really looking into us. And it's fascinating, the Sermon on the Mount, when he says, if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. So Jesus recognizes that about us, doesn't he? If you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. But Jesus is just saying the kind of love I'm calling you to is so much more. He says, “Pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek.” It's a different kind of love and transformation that God is talking about and that he shows us himself. Like in Romans 5: 7&8, we're told very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die for. God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 

‍

[00:11:42] And so just at the start of this conversation, I think we've got to be careful not to frame it in terms of who's better or who are the good people. Like who are the good ones, who are the bad ones, who's better than others? Because the starting point in the Christian faith is actually that nobody is good, right? I mean, Jesus himself says, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, but God alone." It's like a clue into his identity. That he's saying if you see that I am good, that's telling you something about who I actually am. Because only God himself can be called good. And so, yes, that is possibly an incredibly offensive thing for us to say. To say to everybody out there, no matter how good you're looking outwardly you still have a heart problem. You're still desperately sick. And yet at the same time, of course, it's also a deeply inviting thing that Jesus is saying here because he says, "Good news is it's not for healthy who need a doctor but the sick. And I've come to call not the righteous, but sinner." So Jesus is saying you've got a huge heart problem. But that's why I have come. I've come for you. So that's our starting point. All of us, I think, are in that same spot. No matter how we might look on the surface, at the baseline, when God is really looking at every person's heart, we're kind of all in the same boat here. 

‍

[00:12:50] But let's go from that to open up this more fundamental question that Jordach is asking. If Christians have the Holy Spirit living within them, and shouldn't we be able to tell a marked difference in their lives when compared to the lives of those living without the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't having the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God living inside you, actually mean that we are empowered to be more loving, to be more selfless, to be more committed to integrity, to actually live out that kind of love that Jesus is calling us to in the Sermon on the Mount when he says even sinners love people like that. I'm asking for more of you. Shouldn't we then expect to find that if Jesus is calling that out in us, and therefore, if we don't, isn't it actually evidence against the claims of Christianity, evidence that there must not be this powerful God and his powerful spirit living within Christian? 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:13:41] Yeah, to be honest-- and Jo you can tell me if I'm wrong here-- but I'm not satisfied with the responses that I usually hear to that challenge as you've articulated it. I feel like I often hear Christians give a response to this challenge that is maybe off base. Typically, I hear something like this: well, it's not that Christians are any better morally than unbelievers, it's just that when unbelievers act morally, they lack a rational foundation for doing so. Unbelievers might act just as moral or even morally better than believers, but atheism cannot provide them with an objective justification for that commitment to morality. Or here's a slightly different but related response that I hear often when the charge of hypocrisy is pushed towards Christians. Someone might say something like, "Well, contrary to the stereotype, Christianity is not about moral improvement. Christianity is about recognizing our moral failings, recognizing that we are helpless to live moral lives and therefore putting our trust not in the morality of our lives, but in Jesus who lived the perfect life and made the perfect sacrifice on our behalf.". 

‍

[00:14:49] Now, as you were glancing towards, there's obviously a lot of truth in that statement. Absolutely, Christianity is about recognizing our moral inability to save ourselves. Absolutely, Christianity is about trusting in Jesus's perfect life and his perfect sacrifice and not in our own good works. Absolutely. But there's also something false that's smuggled into that response because it's not true that Christians are helpless to live moral lives. And that is what's at the heart of Jordach’s question. The idea that Christians are not supposed to be any morally better than anyone else (or let's put it this way) than they were prior to coming to know Christ in their old lives, in their old self. That idea seems very foreign to the Bible to me. Yes, it's true that God can act by common grace and therefore nonbelievers can certainly perform good actions. And it's also certainly true that any fruit of a Christian life is not something that the Christian can accomplish on her own, nor the Christian faith should lead to a deep appreciation of our weakness on our own and our need for a strength beyond ourselves. But those qualifications made, living life with Christ should absolutely make us look different. 

‍

[00:16:07] We are told that the fruit of having Jesus live within us is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. These are all moral categories. And this is actually part of my journey to faith in college. Encouragingly, I came to faith in what I believe was quite a healthy and encouraging a Christian community of students. And in my first semester at college, I was not a believer. I was quite skeptical. And I remember over Christmas reflecting on my first semester of college and I remember saying to myself, "Who are the people who seem to have this security of identity, who seem to have an integrity about them, who seem to have a peacefulness, who seem to be loving each other in a special way?" And I remember reflecting on different people that I had met throughout my first semester of college who seemed to be living extraordinarily well. And then I thought to myself, wow, they all have the same thing in common. They all love Jesus. And I took that to be significant evidence for the Christian faith. It didn't seal the deal for me, but it certainly set me back for my second semester saying I need to test the truth claims of what these people are claiming because it's making a difference in their lives and I can see it. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:17:23] Yeah, I think it's a very impactful thing when somebody does see that significant difference. I can remember years ago when we were living in England meeting an international student who hadn't grown up in a Christian culture at all, they were brand new to Christianity, to seeing Christians and just watching their lives. But her comment was when we started talking about faith, in that conversation she actually said she wanted to become a Christian. But one of the reasons she gave was that she'd been watching Christians and she'd seen that it seemed like they worked harder than anybody else and they were happier than everybody else. And I just thought, wow, that's a really interesting observation. She's from a culture where people worked really hard, but they weren't very happy about it. It led to identity crisis. But she was seeing a difference. And I think that's what we're talking about, where you can actually see a difference or not. So I guess the question is why do we so often not find this then? 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:18:13] It's so encouraging when we do, but oftentimes we don't. And certainly in our own lives, we can sometimes see that and sometimes think, boy, God is not making a difference in my life that he should be in. And I think one main problem is that we often settle for what I would call a pre-Pentecost faith. Peter denied Jesus, so I guess I will too. I think this is one of the craftiest schemes of the enemy. Look, it's right there in Scripture. The apostles were often confused, lacking understanding, doubting, they're focused on themselves. They're bickering between themselves about who is the greatest. They fall asleep when Jesus asked them to keep watch. They're fearful. It says they all deserted him and fled when he's arrested. Even then Peter denying Jesus three times after Jesus told him that he was going to do so. I mean, can I really think that I'm going to live better than the Apostle Peter? Well, that would be pretty arrogant of me, right? But no, here's the thing, that's the first narrative about the apostle's lives. 

‍

[00:19:23] Once you get past the Gospels and into the acts of the apostles and the letters, we have a radically different second narrative about the faith and life of the apostles before their bickering about which of them would be the greatest. Now you have Acts 2, all the believers had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. They had this incredible courage. I mean, before Jesus's death, they're all deserting him. They flee. Peter explicitly denying Jesus. Now throughout the acts of the apostles, they can't help but shout about Jesus from the rooftops, even though they're being intensely persecuted for it. And here's the critical question for you and me today. When does this transformation happen in the lives of the apostles? When did it happen? Because it did not happen when they met Jesus. It didn't happen when they were living with Jesus. It didn't happen when he died. Didn't even happen when he rose from the grave and spent 40 days with them. It only happened 10 days later after he had ascended to heaven, when the Holy Spirit came to live within them at Pentecost. We cannot overestimate the significance of Pentecost. The Apostles lives were utterly transformed, and it was at that moment-- I'm not saying that they became perfect after that or anything like that, but it is hard to think of even a single instance post Pentecost when they were lacking faith or when they weren't living in a way that inspired those around them and made them think these people's God must be great. 

‍

[00:21:00] And the reason I think this is so relevant to today's question and today's discussion is because far too many people settle for being pre-Pentecost followers of Jesus. Sure, I deny Jesus sometimes, but so did the Apostle Peter. So can I really hope for anything more? Yes, you absolutely can. Pentecost screams a huge yes to that question. There is nothing more tragic than being a pre-Pentecost Christian, Christian in belief but not in power. When you have the truth, but you're not doing anything with it. You have the truth, but it's not making a radical, practical, day to day difference in your life. I was imagining a parent whose family was starving of famine. So this parent went on a long, dangerous journey to seek food and he found it, but then he returned to his family without any of the food, rejoicing that he knows where it is. That sounds ridiculous. But the truth is that many confessing Christians are living exactly that same spiritual reality. They know the truth of the gospel-- at least in their heads. They have the right belief system. They sing the right songs every Sunday and yet life looks no different. There is nothing more tragic than having saving truth without saving power. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:22:19] And it's so crazy because the way Jesus speaks about the power that is available to us, it's just so ridiculous. Like John 14: 12, he says, "Very truly, I tell you." And he knows he's going to say something so crazy and that's why he's doubly emphasizing it for us just so we know, I really do mean this. And he says, whoever believes in me-- whoever, not just some super special Christians. But whoever believes in me will do the work I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these. In the context in which Jesus is saying that is the power of the Holy Spirit. That's what he's talking about because just a couple of verses later, Jesus says, "And I will ask the Father and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever, the spirit of truth." So the question is, do we believe that? I mean, just try and get your head around this. Jesus himself was empowered by the very same Holy Spirit that lives inside of you. And there's actually an interesting theological debate about whether Jesus did what he did in his own divine power or through being empowered by the Holy Spirit in the way all believers are now empowered by the Holy Spirit. 

‍

[00:23:25] We're not going to get into the details of that debate right now. But regardless, let me rephrase the question for you. What did Jesus do during his life on earth that it is not possible for you and me to do? Maybe there are a couple of things. Absolutely, I can't atone for sin for one. But Jesus miracles, the way he loves people, his courage, his boldness, his wisdom, the way he had just the right words for seemingly impossible situations, all of that is available to us by the power of the Holy Spirit. You see, the question is, do we live that way? Do we pray that way? Do we walk around with that confidence? Jesus' last words on earth-- a person's last words are pretty important. What does Jesus say right before he ascends? He says, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you." That word power (Dunamis in the Greek) is where we get the English word dynamite from. You will become dynamite when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:24:25] And so that's where the frustration comes in, because we so often don't experience that. And so the question is, why not? That's the question. And as we've reflected on this to two main-- not the only ones, but two main answers came to mind for us. The first is that the Bible talks about being full of the Holy Spirit, which is a very interesting language because to be full of one thing, you need to be empty above everything else. If you have a bucket and it's got a bunch of sand and rocks in it, it can't also be full of water. And that language, I think, is highly intentional in Scripture because it speaks to how completely and wholeheartedly God wants us to respond when He invites us to follow him. When Jesus says, "Follow me," he's not talking about following him on social media. He's not talking about observing him from a safe distance and giving him a thumbs up every once in a while whenever he says something witty. No, when Jesus says, "Follow me," in that case, to Andrew and Peter, he's literally standing in front of them and saying, "I'm going. Do you want to follow me? I'm actually going somewhere. Are you coming or not?" It's binary. In that moment of decision, yes or no? All or nothing. You cannot stay where you are and follow me. A decision is required. You're either coming or you're not. And then they left everything and followed him. 

‍

[00:25:50] Jesus's invitation is an invitation to complete surrender. And I'll probably be going to talk about this further on a future episode because we've been thinking a lot about it. But my concern is that sometimes we settle for being committed Christians. Sure, we're committed to Christianity. To what our parents did, it's good for our children. It aligns with our politics. It provides community. I mean, some of those are even good things. And yet commitment and surrender are two very different categories. And truly following Jesus and being filled with his powerful Holy Spirit is all about making the move in your heart. Asking God to make the move in your heart from commitment to full surrender 100%. All in like vows on a wedding day. Yes, there is a long, hard, beautiful road ahead after those wedding vows. But that first decision, that response to your vows needs to be no holding back, no hedging your bets. One hundred percent, I'm all in. Fully surrendered. And I think at the root of our struggle with this so often, is that we can sometimes fall into treating God like an object rather than a subject. If we're not careful, especially in cultures that are more individualistic, more consumeristic, where we expect everything to be for us and we expect it to be available at the push of a button, we can wind up treating God like an object for our consumption rather than as a subject that we are called into relationship with. 

‍

[00:27:29] And it makes a big difference because with objects that are meant to be consumed, you don't need 100%. You know, 80% tends to work fine. If you eat 80% of your dinner, you get 80% of the calories. If you do 80% of your workout, you get roughly 80% of the health benefits. But covenantal relationships, entirely different category. If you are 80% in on your vows on your wedding day, you don't get 80% of a good marriage. You get disaster. And you can't parent at 80% either. You can't just take one in five days off from parenting. That doesn't work. That does not lead to a healthy family life. But far too many people, people who go by the name Christian have never fully surrendered to Jesus. They stood at the altar with him and said 80%. And then they expected to get 80% of the empowering of the Christian life. It doesn't work that way. No relationships of significance work that way. It is entirely possible to be committed to Christianity without being surrendered to Jesus Christ. But the empowering of God's Holy Spirit to actually live the Christian life only comes when we are fully surrendered, when we pour everything else out in surrender to God so that we can be filled full of Him and nothing else. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:28:52] That is so challenging. And also, yeah, forget about taking one in five days off from parenting. You can't even take five minutes off in parenting. People ask me now, what are your hobbies? I'm like, going to the bathroom by myself is the dream. But I think this is so challenging because if we're honest with ourselves, we know this all too well. If you're a Christian, you know this struggle. You know personally that Vince is talking about so many of us. We've got to be honest there are times in our lives, even when we're going by the label Christian, where we want a form of godliness while denying its power. This kind of Christianity that is so watered down that is preached so often in our world today, where what people are promised is a savior but not a lord. Someone who rescues us from sin every time we fall into it, but never also demands any change from us. We don't want to change. I sort of laughed, but also it was brutal when I read Tim Keller's definition of permissiveness the other day. He says permissiveness is basically people thinking, well, this is a great arrangement. God loves forgiving sins and I love committing them. Good deal, right? 

‍

[00:30:01] Even when we're not looking to intentionally be permissive about sin or trying to break the rules or be rebellious, we still struggle, I think, between being really surrendered or not. If we're honest, there will be times in our lives when we know we have been living surrendered and times that we haven't. I can remember in high school-- well I've been a Christian for a long time already by then. But one of my friends came to me and she said "Jo, what's going on with you? You just seem really off at the moment. The last few weeks you haven't been nice to be around." She was kind of a blunt friend, but I appreciate it. And I said, "Well, actually, to be honest, I haven't been reading my Bible. And I kind of been struggling and I haven't been spending much time with God lately." And she wasn't a Christian, but she goes, "Well, just please, will you just start doing it because you're horrible without it." 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:30:44] Start reading your Bible again. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:30:46] Just go read your flipping Bible was her comment. It was like, whoa. It actually makes the difference to me. A visible, tangible difference to my friends whether or not I'm actually being obedient and surrendered to God or not. And I think we've all been there, right? We've all had times when we know the Holy Spirit is prompting us to do something. He's leading us into something costly, something sacrificial, something radical, something we don't want to do. But we know it would be the loving thing to do. It would be the powerful thing to do. And we just haven't said yes to it. We've leaned out rather than into what God is doing. And that's just the reality that so many of us are struggling with. But no wonder it leaves people questioning if we're not surrendered. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:31:26] Yeah, that's such an amazing story, Jo, because so often we sort of think we can tell that we're off, we're just doing this great job hiding it, it's just inside. But the reality is that people can tell and nonbelievers can tell. And this goes right to the question that we're speaking of. What are we testifying about who God is and the way that he has promised to empower us, if what nonbelievers are seeing in our lives is not a true representation of the spirit that lives within us? That's so good. There's a second main reason that we want to raise about why we think we tend to miss out on the Holy Spirit's power for the Christian life. And it's this: as Christians we often don't understand or at least don't appreciate what we are called to. At least not fully. If I asked you what is your ultimate calling as a Christian, what would you say? And it seems like that's a simple question. It should be an obvious answer. One of the elders of our church, Kevin Kim, preached on this a couple weeks ago, and it really struck a chord with so many of us because he said, what is basically the goal of the Christian life? What do we call to, first and foremost? Ultimately, what is God after primarily? And he said, is it salvation? Is it our personal salvation? 

‍

[00:32:50] Well, certainly God wants that. But no, that's not the end of the story. That's still heading somewhere. It's part of the story, but it's not the ultimate end. Well, then we move on to what about personal holiness? God wants me to be holy to reflect his likeness. He wants my sanctification, too. Well, yes, God does want that, but that's still actually not the end of the story. That's still pointing toward something greater. And Kevin said the answer is actually the church. That God wants a unified people for himself, a holy nation, a people for his own possession. And as soon as he said it, I was like, of course, that's the whole story of the Bible. That's the whole story of the Old Testament of God pursuing not just individuals, but a people who were supposed to exist as a holy nation together in community and then that continues into the New Testament. And that is what God is longing for in the context of his church. And in eternity we're not just going to be interacting with God as isolated souls, we're going to be interacting with him as a community and him people in him our God. We're going to be living together. 

‍

[00:34:12] And when you read many of the books of the Bible, if you read the book of Ephesians as a whole in context, not just picking out a specific verse that maybe is encouraging to me personally about my personal sanctification in the context of my personal salvation; but when you read a book like a Ephesians as a whole, when you read the entirety of the Bible as a whole, it is obvious that the answer to that question is that God is seeking for himself a people, a church that would be in community and living with one another and loving one another and completely united and perfectly one as he prayed in John 17, in that final prayer just before he went to the cross. That is the [inaudible] for which he is empowering us as Christians. And we see it all over Scripture, even first Corinthians 12, great chapter to read. "Now to each one, the manifestation of the Spirit is given." Why? Is it just for my personal sanctification and holiness? No, it says for the common good. Or Ephesians three. We love this passage and we love to pray this for ourselves and others individually because it's all about the empowering of the Holy Spirit to live the life that Christ has created us for. Let me just read it, but there's some really interesting details here. "I pray that out of his glorious riches, he may strengthen you with power through his spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your heart through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love may have power." And then listen to this, "Together with all the Lord's holy people." 

‍

[00:35:50] Do we ever reflect on that part of the sentence? Together with all the Lord's holy people. To grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ and to know his love that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. His desire to fill us to the measure of all the fullness of God is in the context of together with all the Lord's holy people. And then it continues, "Now to him who's able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine." So this is all about the empowering of the Spirit. According to his power that is at work within us, to him be the glory. Where? In the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. It's all throughout the Scriptures if we read it in context. God wants a building where all the stones are rightly connected. He wants a family where every member is necessary. He wants a body where every joint, every organ is absolutely essential. All the metaphors for God's ultimate calling and aim. The point is, the power we get from the Spirit is for the building up of God's holy church of his people. That's why it occurs within the church, not just two individuals pursuing personal holiness independently. 

‍

[00:37:09] There is little power in the Christian life lived outside of the church, and so many Christians are living largely outside the church. Maybe they go to a church building on a Sunday, but they don't live within a community of believers in a way that reflects anything like what we see in Acts two or first Corinthians 12, or Ephesians four, or the history of the early church. And so, if as Christians we are serious about living a Holy Spirit empowered life that can be recognized by others as consistent with the faith that we profess, then we need to be fiercely serious about the church and about guarding against division and fighting for the complete unity and perfect oneness that Jesus prayed for and living a life with other believers in the intentional pursuit of what the Scriptures say, growing up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped. When each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. We cannot expect God to empower those who believe in him outside of them pursuing what he has actually called them to. He fills us, yes, but he fills us for a calling. And primarily that calling is to be the church. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:38:32] That's so challenging, isn't it? Because I think so often when we focus on these things, even thinking about transformation, we do think about it in terms of personal transformation. Am I being a good Christian this week? How holy am I? Perfectionism creeps in. Like, is God going to be pleased with me? But so often it's about the fear for ourselves rather than the motive being about love for another. God gave me these gifts so that I can love my brothers and sisters well, so that I can build them up, so that I can serve them. It's so hard in our very individualistic culture to get out of that individualistic mindset, but that is what Jesus is calling us to. And I think all the time and honestly, even the last couple of weeks, I felt really heavy thinking about the state of the world in the church through the framework of their statement that Jesus says when he says that you will be known by your love. And for me, that raises the obvious question, but are we? Are Christians today known by our love? When people think about Christians and it just comes up as the topic of conversation between people who aren't believers, do they immediately respond, "Yeah, these Christians, they're just so loving. Don't you just love like being in a culture with all these Christians? Aren't they just so encouraging to be around. Don't you just want to spend time with them? Don't you just want to be around Christians?". 

‍

[00:39:47] I just genuinely think that is not the impression that people are getting. Like, what does the watching world make of us when they watch our infighting that's become very public online? And it's like we're not even attempting anymore to pretend to care about not only whether we disagree, but the tone in which we do it and whether we're being loving and respectful in the way that we're having conversations. I think many people are compelled and drawn to Jesus, but then they look at the way Christians are beating down on one another and they think, yeah, thanks, but no thanks. Maybe Jesus, but those Christians, that's not a family I want to be a part of. Honestly, how many times have I had friends say to me who aren't Christians that the number one reason that they don't want to be a Christian, the thing that puts them off the most is the hypocrisy in the church. They did a survey back in the UK a number of years ago now, but that was also listed as the primary reason why people didn't want to be Christians was because of hypocrisy. So coming back to the original question by Jordach, is this an argument against God? I think this is partly why I've been wrestling this week because I sort of want to say yes and no. On the one hand, you hear people say-- and I think they're right-- don't judge a philosophy by its abuse. And there's definitely something to that. If you listen to me trying to play Chopin on the piano, please don't judge Chopin based on my attempt to follow his vision for music. Like, I'm not going to do justice in any way to Chopin. 

‍

[00:41:08] And we just have to remember that Jesus himself spoke strongly against hypocrisy. And he made it clear that just because people claim to be following God and knowing the right laws, that doesn't mean they reflect the God that they claim to be following. In Matthew 23: 27-28, "Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, religious leaders. You hypocrites, you are like whitewashed tombs which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way on the outside you appear to people as righteous, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. I think it's so significant that Jesus reserves his strongest condemnation for religious leaders who are hypocrites, who are abusing their positions, who are supposed to shepherd but have only caused more trauma. But Jesus certainly isn't surprised by it, so we shouldn't be either. But nevertheless, Jesus is repulsed by it. He even says there will be a day when people will say, Lord, didn't we do this for you or that for you? And he'll say, "Get away from me. I never knew you." But I think here is that part of the reason why he is so furious about this, is precisely because by this behavior religious hypocrites do make a mockery of the very God that whose name we claim to act. And God's response to that is no, not in my name. Don't you dare do those things and behave in those ways in my name, while carrying the name Christian on your back and yet you're going around doing these things. 

‍

[00:42:35] And so I think because of that, there is a sense in which a lack of the spirit's power in the lives of Christians, it is evidence against God. And that is so deeply convicting because we are the ones who are making that argument against God. We claim to follow him, but actually we're putting people off. And so here we are supposed to be living lives of such hope that they cause people to consistently ask us to tell them the reason for the distinctive and unique hope that we have, according to one Peter 3:15. And yet instead, our lives are causing people to reject Christianity because people don't like Christians. Our lives is supposed to be [inaudible] lived out, known and read by everyone. But what are they reading? So many people are walking away from the church not because they've lost faith in the teaching, but they've lost faith in the people. And so they're getting out because they think if that's what being a Christian means, if that is what I'm going to become like, or the kind of community that I have to be a part of, I want nothing to do with it. 

‍

[00:43:30] We read in church just the other week, Ephesians 4:1, "I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle, be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace." And that does challenge me so much. Are we living a life worthy of the calling we've received? I think we need to take responsibility for that. As Christians, we need to own that and repent of it lest we become evidence against God. Jordach, this is why your question has been so challenging this week, because I've been wrestling through and thinking, well, am I doing that? That is a very serious thing. Am I acting in any way, in any relationships in my life as evidence against God? Am I actually putting people off rather than drawing them in? When they look at my life, are they seeing the beauty of Christ shining through? Or actually they're seeing things that saying, "No thank you, I don't want anything to do with that." And that is a very serious challenge for all of us. 

‍

Vince Vitale [00:44:30] Yeah, we need to take that very seriously. And yet I also want to encourage us as we start to come to a close that in medicine there are often more false negatives than false positives. Sort of the same with eyesight. You might miss seeing something, but if you've seen it with your own two eyes, it's probably real. And despite everything that Joe has said, I absolutely believe there is transformation that I have seen in people's lives, in my own life, in Jo's life. A transformation that is simply not possible or explainable to my mind outside the context of Jesus entering someone's life. I have just seen him do things in people's lives that I have never seen anything or anyone else do other than Jesus himself. And if you've seen the real thing, even if you've seen it one time, that is only explainable by the power of God. And it's so encouraging when that happens. And particular in the context of community, I was just thinking about I used to play in a Christian soccer team in the summers with Athletes in Action and we would go to different countries. 

‍

[00:45:38] And one time we'd take a couple of nonbelievers with us as part of our own mission, as long as they knew what we were doing and they were supportive of it. And one year our goalkeeper had not yet come to faith and he wound up coming to faith. But he lived with us for several weeks while we were out on mission. And then I just remember at one point as he was trying to just get to grips with what Christianity was all about, and he said, "So you become a Christian so that you can live the life. Is that right?" And I thought, what a beautiful way to put it. And what an encouraging way to put it. That he had actually been seeing the Christian life lived out in the context of community for several weeks, and that's how he understood the gospel. You become a Christian, not just so you can run from some things, not just so that there won't be some bad things, but so that you can live the life. So that you can live a Holy Spirit empowered life in the context of church community that you were called to and that you were made for. 

‍

Jo Vitale [00:46:38] Yeah, so good. And your question means a lot to me because I feel like I spent a lot of the last few years just really weighed down at times in grief and lament over disunity in the church and between Christians and just feeling like a heavy weight, like a sadness over so much of what just shouldn't but somehow is. And it's really helped me in those times of feeling despondent or disillusioned when I'm wrestling in prayer before God, like, what do I do with this? Not only to be able to look to Jesus and the life of integrity that he lived but to be able to say, "Well, there is one person who's done it perfectly and beautifully and he is someone I can look to no matter what else." But also to be able to then look around me and say, but for all of the mess, for all of the hurt and the struggle and the disappointments at times, I do have examples in my life of genuine transformation, even amongst counterfeits, the real thing. When you've seen the real thing, it's so powerful. When you see someone transformed in such a way that it's not just like the transformation has been from bad behavior to good behavior, but literally from death to life. Something so different. And you are like no self-help book or self-regulation or meditation practice or change in diet or habits or therapy could have brought about what is different in this person. It's like they're genuinely let up from within. I've had some mentors like that. 

‍

[00:48:01] I've had friends like that who I've seen just walk this beautiful life of faithfulness and obedience and sacrifice and just become gradually just transformed to be more and more like Jesus in the way that they love. And even just really stark examples, Vince and I used to do prison ministry in England. And the prison we went to was for really serious offenses. A lot of the men were in there for murder and for rape. But I just couldn't believe it when I went in and I met the men who'd given their lives to Jesus through this ministry because the transformation was unbelievable. The way they worship, the joy on their faces, the love that they encouraged each other with, the total vulnerability and honesty and repentance, just the willingness to repent over and over again. To be so real about sin, to step into freedom and not to want to stay in it. The kindness and respect with which they treated me, I just couldn't get my head around it. It was so real. It was so powerful. It was such a compelling argument for Jesus and the way that he had transformed their lives. 

‍

[00:49:03] Our son, Raphael, this month he's learning the Bible verse. The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness and self-control. And it's just an amazing thing when you actually see that fruit blooming in other people's lives. And it gives you profound hope for just how powerful the spirit actually is and the work that he can do. And it inspires me to think, Lord, let that be so in my life. Let that be the fruit that I bear. Let people see good fruit in me and hopefully in you who are listening as well, so that there is a testimony of evidence for God and you get to be it to a watching world.

‍

‍